A US Navy attack submarine enters Apra Harbor in Guam.

A US Navy attack submarine enters Apra Harbor in Guam.

THE FUTURE: Imagine you’re a Chinese high commander, taking stock at the outbreak of the next great war. All your aides and computer displays tell you the same thing: For hundreds of miles out into the Western Pacific, the sea and sky are yours. They are covered by the overlapping threat zones of your long-range land-based missiles, your Russian-made Sukhoi aircraft, your home-grown stealth fighters, and your ultra-quiet diesel submarines, all cued by your surveillance network of sensors on land, sea, air, and space.

The net effect is what the West calls Anti-Access/Area Denial (A2/AD)  and you call counter-intervention. Now you can deal with the Japanese imperialists and Taiwanese separatists without American interference. As Mao’s followers once sang, the East is Red.

Then it all starts rotting from the inside out.

Here and there, in patches, your sensor coverage goes fuzzy, communications become erratic: American jamming. But the interference isn’t at the periphery of the defense zone, where US sea, land, and air forces are slamming away from the outside. It’s emerging close to the Chinese coast. The source can only be American submarines.

Chinese aircraft scrambled to stop the jamming find antennas on buoys, unmanned boats, or small drones. Each one is easily destroyed, but there are a lot of them. For each one you wipe from your screens, another two pop up. Meanwhile the American submarines themselves remain elusive, silently dropping expendable, unmanned jammers that wait for the sub to get well away before they go active. When your sub-hunters do find something underwater, it’s usually an unmanned submersible or a weapons pod lying on the seafloor.

At least part of the problem is inside your network, too. Radars and radios are failing in places out of range of any jammer. Some submarine-launched system must have hacked into your wireless transmissions and injected a virus.

And now, only now, as your forces start going deaf and blind, do the Americans mount a physical attack. American Air Force bombers, Navy warships, and Army artillery batteries start firing cruise missiles through the gaps in your sensor coverage. In some places, F-35 stealth fighters slip past your struggling radars; in others, EA-18G Growler aircraft pour on high-powered jamming. Each strike tears another node from your network. You can still see and communicate well enough to know the attacks are coming, but not well enough to stop them.

Cruise missiles are rising from your own home waters now. The submarines off China’s coast have grown so confident that they’ll risk revealing their positions to fire. Or perhaps it’s more of those autonomous weapons pods on the seafloor. You don’t have the sensors left to figure out which.

Any of these incoming weapons could have a nuclear warhead aimed at Beijing. There’s no way to tell and no way to stop them all. This can’t go on.

Knowing it will cost your career, or worse, you pick up the hardened landline phone. “Comrade Chairman,” you say, “I advise that we seek a ceasefire.”

 

Vice Adm. Michael Connor

Vice Adm. Michael Connor

War For The Spectrum

“To control the electromagnetic spectrum, you have to be able to put whatever your device is that controls that spectrum in the place where you need it,” declared Vice Adm. Mike Connor, commander of Atlantic submarine forces, in address to the Naval Submarine League. In the submarine force, he went on, “we have a remarkable ability to take the sensors that we have” — as well as “offensive” systems, he added — “and put them in the place they are most relevant, because we can get closer.”

“We’re the ultimate stealth force,” Connor told me when I approached him after his talk. “We can knock down some of that A2/AD defense. We can tell someone we’ve done that” — that is, by reporting back to the main fleet — “[and] start telling them where things are, and then we can start working with them to coordinate the next wave.”

There’s a danger here, Connor acknowledged. Submarines survive by hiding: They emit as little as possible, whether it’s sound waves or electromagnetic ones. They risk revealing their position every time they transmit reports to other units, let alone if they turn on a jammer. Whether that risk is worth it will be a crucial decision for the future submarine commander

“He’s going to have to go, ‘Hey, is it time to give up stealth to go tell someone what’s going on?'” said Connor. “He’s going to have to decide that and I can’t decide that from Norfolk, Virginia.”

But it’s not a binary either/or, on/off. How long you transmit, how strongly, where and when are all variables the commander can adjust to set the balance of gain and risk — part of what the Navy calls Electromagnetic Maneuver Warfare. Another aspect, Connor told me, is “sending some payload way over there and having them tell [the rest of the fleet]. There’s a lot of stuff you can do like that.”

What the admiral is hinting at is using submarines to launch unmanned systems. These could be as simple as a communications buoy that rises to the surface, waits a set time, and transmits. They could be expendable drones, launched from a submarine’s missile tubes the same way as a Tomahawk. They could be complex mini-subs in themselves, known as large diameter underwater unmanned vehicles (LDUUVs), that can launch from a manned sub to conduct a long-range mission. They could even be large payload modules that are towed behind a submarine until, at a strategic point, it releases them to settle to the sea floor and await the signal to unleash their payload of UUVs, drones or missiles.

Whatever form they take, the robots have the same essential purpose: to keep the expensive and precious manned submarine at a distance from danger by sending an unmanned surrogate instead. Even a large-diameter UUV or seafloor-lurking pod is a fraction the size of a sub, with no nuclear reactor or human beings onboard, so it’s much harder to find and hit. Even if it is destroyed, its loss is much more acceptable than that of a $2-plus billion sub with 132 souls aboard.

That makes unmanned vehicles the logical choice for electronic warfare. Jamming means transmitting in a way the enemy can pick up, so a jammer by definition reveals its presence (though it may be hard for the enemy to lock onto and shoot). A single jammer can launch multiple EW drones and have them wait a while, fly a ways, or both before they go active and blaze their presence across the enemy’s screens.

EW also encompasses subtler missions, however. Indeed, electronic warfare, cyber warfare and espionage are increasingly blurring together.

 

ssn695Underwater Espionage

Submarines have long served as spies. The US tapped underwater cables during the Cold War. But underwater espionage “really expanded with the introduction of things like Wi-Fi,” said Bryan Clark, a retired Navy submariner now with the Center for Strategic & Budgetary Assessments. Just like your neighbor who forgot to put a password on her home’s wireless network, he said, governments aren’t always as careful as they should be.

But how to tap this modern source of intelligence? “You can be out beyond the territorial [waters] of a country and you can pick up wireless signals, [but] if you drive around there with a surface boat, people are going to see you and wonder what the heck you’re doing,” Clark said. “Submarines offered this opportunity to get in close.”

“It started in the Cold War [and] really picked up in the late ’90s, early 2000s, and now that’s a pretty significant mission for the submarine force,” Clark said. “SIGINT [Signals Intelligence] and electronic warfare end up being really good missions for a submarine, because they don’t require a huge amount of payload but they do require access, [stealth], and persistence.”

But submarines do have real limits as electronic eavesdroppers. “The mast doesn’t stick that far out of the water,” Clark said, “[so] your horizon’s pretty close, so you can’t get too far away.” The periscope mast can also only carry a relatively small sensor — although Navy upgrade programs are making the best they can of limited space — which limits range still more. US submariners have been able to work around these problems, Clark said, “[but] against an alerted enemy, getting close enough to really get a good signal is hard.”

It’s only going to get harder, added another CSBA scholar, Robert Martinage. “Adversaries are getting better for a host of reasons, largely technology-driven, at anti-submarine warfare,” he told me, “so getting in real close in shallow waters to do that type of mission may be increasingly problematic for the large manned submarines in the future.”

“That’s why we want to offboard that mission to UUVs,” Martinage said, with the manned sub hanging back as the mothership. That’s not a simple solution, he emphasized. “The two long poles technologically with UUVs are one, autonomy” — that is, the robot’s ability to make decisions for itself — “and the second is high-density energy storage so you can have both endurance and speed underwater.” Currently, he said, you can have a long-range unmanned underwater vehicle or a fast one, but not both.

The other alternative is Unmanned Aerial Vehicles. As strange as launching aircraft from underwater may seem, there’ve been successful experiments doing exactly that, for example with a folding-wing mini-drone called Sea Robin. You can’t fit a large, long-range drone on a submarine — the Navy’s MQ-4C Triton, for example, has a wingspan of 131 feet — but you can get close enough that a short-ranged one is viable, Clark said.

The downside to carrying UAVs and UUVs is they displace missiles and torpedoes, and submarines are always tight on space. But Clark and Martinage argue that carrying unmanned systems to spy on, jam, and hack enemy electronics is a better use of a sub’s limited payload than kinetic weapons.

“You’re better off using the submarine to deliver smaller electronic warfare payloads, [because] they’re smaller than the missiles, so you can carry them in larger numbers,” Clark told me. That means the sub can keep doing the electronic/cyber warfare mission longer than it can keep up a kinetic bombardment. What’s more, he argued, even a submarine maxed out on missiles may not do much against a sophisticated foe. We can hit targets with Tomahawks at will in Third World countries, “[but] as defenses get better, three or four cruise missiles aren’t going to be enough,” he said, “[and] if I’m launching a dozen cruise missiles, that’s like the whole capacity of a Virginia-class submarine.”

The upgrade known as the Virginia Payload Module will more than triple the number of launch tubes on future Virginias. You could fit even more weapons on a towed payload module, external to the submarine, that could be deposited on the ocean floor and commanded by remote control, Martinage argued. But even with this extra capacity, he agrees that jammers and sensors will often be a better use of payload space than explosive warheads.

“Submarines…need to take on a wider variety of missions beyond just anti-surface warfare or anti-submarine warfare or even land attack,” Martinage told me. “There are lots of other ways in the joint force to do standoff land attack,” he said, from surface ships with Tomahawks to long-range bombers, “but there aren’t as many ways to get in close under an adversary’s A2/AD umbrella and do other missions.”

Comments

  • Gary Church

    Jamming the entire EM spectrum or using it like a sniper rifle to neutralize an enemy defensive system is…much easier written about in magazine articles than done in real life. Not to say it is not worth doing it- it is just not worth relying on as the silver bullet for A2/D2. The thing is that data packets always get through. There are ways to do it that I am not going to talk about- even though I am pretty sure it is declassified now.

    The satellites are really the key high ground- and flooding orbital space with ball bearings and destroying all overhead assets is the best opening move in a winner take all nuclear war. It is an ugly scenario that no one wants to even talk about. Unfortunately it IS possible that overhead assets could be wiped out by an aggressor that has calculated it is worth the risk since they will lose a conventional war anyway if opposing satellites remain operational. They may just do it without regard to the danger of nuclear escalation.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome

    Drones launched from Submarines are about the only way to go considering surface ships are missile fodder now. Sea gliders make even large submarines continued effectiveness doubtful. The very deep diving smaller submarine that can hide in bottom clutter several miles down- the majority of the ocean bottom is between 10 and 20,000 feet deep if I recall correctly- is what will be survivable for some time to come. With those kind of boats it’s a whole new ball game creeping around hundreds of thousands of square miles of bottom. Welcome to the 21st century.

  • http://none.com Jack Everett

    So when does this new game go on the market” The kids are going to love it.

    This is the authors way of saying American can renege on it’s debt it created through supporting communists with our technology.

    Nuclear war is no longer an option. The first country to use nukes will e turned into an ash pit, including the U.S.

    While this is going on with China, Russia is doing the same thing with American spying.

    War is coming soon the U.S. has done everything possible to create it.

    The empire has failed just like the Roman empire failed through greed and expansionism. America Has Been At War 93% of the Time – 222 Out of 239 Years – Since 1776

    “Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear-kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor-with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it …” – General Douglas MacArthur, 1957

    All these war mongering articles are written and supported by the military industrial complex to generate a constant military support for the political profiteers that invest highly in the death and destruction of any country that has an oil field they can steal.

    Take the advice of president Eisenhower and don’t let the military industrial complex rule.

    • Wrabble

      89 Vauxhall.

    • Michael Rich

      You’re really not a smart man, are you?

      • shipfixr

        In his own mind he is…

        • http://none.com Jack Everett

          You don’t have a mind or you wouldn’t make that troll comment

          • shipfixr

            Careful, Gary Church is going to get you for saying ‘troll’

        • 10579

          Your giving him to much credit for having a mind.Troll that JE

      • http://none.com Jack Everett

        No you are not your just a wing nut Koch sock puppet.

    • shipfixr

      I’ve got to laugh at MacArthur’s quote; until Truman fired him, he advocated just the policy he spoke against in 1957. It’s truly amazing that you quote Ike and then put a dunce cap on the GOP elephant……

      • http://none.com Jack Everett

        Unlike me you have no idea what MacArthur was like or did. I know, I served under him.

        • shipfixr

          Having served under MacArthur means nothing to me; what I said is factual. He’s the guy who wanted to use nuclear weapons against that “…monstrous foreign power….” called China when his prediction that they wouldn’t intervene in Korea backfired on him; he’s also the General who, as Chief of Staff of the Army in the early 30’s used excessive force to put down the “..terrible evil at home…” of the veteran ‘bonus marchers’ in Washington, D.C. MacArthur invented the term “…patriotic fervor…” when he was campaigning undercover for the White House after WWII. I have a feeling that, having “..served under him” you think you know more about him than you do. Now, go find a cartoon to post.

        • ycplum

          MacArthur was very good (even brilliant) general, but a failure as an American General. The fundamental rule for the US military is that it is under civilan control in the form of the President. MacArthur had a history of undermining Presidents and trying to force their hand in policies. That is not acceptable of any American officer.
          .
          The US military is unique in all of history for be so unchallengingly powerful, yet so apolitical.

  • Major Lee Gassole

    It all sounded feasible up to the point where I read “In some places, F-35 stealth fighters slip past your struggling radars;” 😉

    • ycplum

      It is a theoretical study. ; )

  • originalone

    And the consensus is, if this kind of thinking is what the U.S.Military is engaged in, all bets are off, as far as the future of the human race is concerned. As one comment noted, for a video game, the kids will love it. Perhaps this is why since WW2, outside of the “Cold War”, there hasn’t been a true victory for the Military, but death & destruction & ballooning the debt to be paid for by successive future generations, providing there are future generations.

    • vegass04 .

      Hmmmm..I would call Desert Storm a true victory. US armed forces have always came out victorious when they had a specific tactical or strategic objective. But that objective will be very hard to pin point in future near peer conflict. What would that be in a hypotetical war with China, stopping Chinese from embarking on shores of Taiwan, sinking their fleet, destroying Chinese economical potential by knocking their infrastructure..??
      And what would a Chinese objective be, sinking a carrier, carpet bomb Guam and Okinawa, launching ICBMs at L.A and Washington…???

      • ycplum

        You can’t face the US military militarily. To beat the US military, you have to fight on the political field, which is the area of responsibility of our politicians – and they suck. Only the US can win pretty much every battle and lose the war.

        • Ztev Konrad

          Korea: Draw
          Vietnam: Loss
          GW1: Win
          GW2: Win
          Afghan: Loss

          • ycplum

            I am not sure what you consider to be GW 2. I don’t think we did that well in rebuilding Iraq.

            Off the top of my head, I do not know of any country won almost all the battles and still lost the war.

          • http://none.com Jack Everett

            GW2 is the biggest loss and treasonout war ever created through lies.
            Where is all that rebuilding Butcher Bush said he did? Where is that fully trained and armed Iraqi army Butcher Bush claims he spent billion making?

  • Matt

    I wonder if the Chinese or Russians get any insight or ideas that could help them with waging war from your research Sydney? The US is open the others would not be. I assume they read your stuff.

    • USN_RET

      For those working in the field, Mr. Freedberg didn’t say anything that isn’t already commonly known. This is 101 in the field of cyberwarfare.

      • ycplum

        Actually, this is 101 even for us amateurs that casually brush against cyberwarfare while perusing our other interests. lol

  • thetruth

    All of this and we have No Southern Border With Mexico/South America..all the murdering cartel gangs are coming and going at will and anyone else that wants to Destroy Us From Within…We keep looking Over There and at The Sky All Along the Enemy Comes and Goes At Will on our No Border with Mexico….No Borders No Country…Obama was not the First Nail but he is the Last Nail In The ReOccupation of the USA…By Murdering Gangs, Anti Americans…Every Foreign Threat Crosses At Will On Our No Borders With Mexico…Arise And Walk Silent Majority Before It Is Too Late…

  • BestOfAll

    The Chinese have come a long, long, way since the days of Chairman Mao…

    • ycplum

      Especially after he died. The guy was a charismatic political mastermind, but an economic idiot. Dong Zhou Ping was the guy who put substance to Mao’s vague directives and later pushed China toward capitalism when he came into power.

  • lclbotelho

    Certainly the use of advanced jamming technology on the battlefield will lead to the use of tactical nuclear weaponry .Perhaps on those first moments of the engament .By the way ,are you sure that the US citizens want to exchange Beijin for new York (Norfolk) plus Miami or Los angeles and Chicago ?…..China or Russian Federation is not Iraquior Pakistan or North Corea …..

  • lclbotelho

    The US navy should remember Pearl Harbor -the behavior on War is really impredictable .By the way , in present days I still thinking that large scale conventional conflicts is mad (mutual assecured destruction ),since very advanced “conventional” weaponry (air bombs for instance) is somewhat equivalent to the use of tactical nuclear weapons since they have the same effect as is described on the article (specially as torpedo warhead wich greatily increase the impact point on others subs (can you tell me the ratio of impact damaging of a nuclear torpedo in relation to the conventional ones ? ) and surely they are taylored to sink nuclear aircrafts far offshore .I still think that surface warships have becoming somewhat outdated in hypothetical warfare among nuclear advanced countries .Besides no one counts with the US or European civilian popular revolt against being used in theses apocalypitic scenarios .Be sure that ,for instance ,after a 24 hours of evacuation warning on incoming nuclear carpeting (10 nuclear warheads exploding at the same time!) on Hamburg city ,Germany will declare neutrality or Texas will declare its independence of USA and declare neutrality about a China or European conflict .The use o nuclear weapons or overwhwlming advanced jaming technology is impredictive from the human side…

    • ycplum

      The biggest lesson the US needs to learn from Pearl Harbor is to not underestimate your enemy (or potential enemy).

      [Morgan: Why, after you received this ‘war warning’ message of November 27, did you leave the Fleet in Pearl Harbor?

      Kimmel: All right, Morgan—I’ll give you your answer. I never thought those little yellow sons-of-bitches could pull off such an attack, so far from Japan.]
      —Edward Morgan interview of Admiral Kimmel

  • ycplum

    Warfare used to be about punching through armor. Then it was grinding away at each other (attrition). For a while there was the golden days of maneuver warfare. It seems the future we can look forward to is like peeling onions. : -P

    • Uniform223

      In a sense its still about punching through the armor (defenses). Now its not so much punching through the armor at the most direct source but finding weaknesses and going through that. If that is not the case then through clever tactics you can go around it. Maneuver warfare still exists for the units actually shooting the guns and launching the missiles. That would be orchestrated with other types of warfare like depicted here in this article.
      I would like to believe this is all just a critical thinking exercise and partially theoretical. I would HATE to see and actual situation like this come up.

      • ycplum

        I think of it as peeling back layers of armor till you can slip in a stiletto.

  • Earl Tower

    The problem with EW, ECM, ECCM, cyber warfare and all the various things is you are targeting capacity. The best you can hope to do is temporarily degrade capacity. The enemy can and will adjust. At best all this can be a force multipler or a disruptor of the enemy’s command cycle.

    • Tired_Libertarian

      Given enough time any enemy will adjust it’s tactics to use it’s resources more efficiently. The question is whether there will be enough time. I have the feeling that the next big battle will be a quick but fierce one that was preceded by a longer period of time of logistical maneuvering. You could bet that positioning subs with EW packages would be part of this early phase first to recon then to attack/disrupt. By the time the Chinese can adjust the Liaoning (snicker) is a brand new man made reef. Maybe even get luck enough for them to surge their boomers right into the teeth of US subs.

  • sailor12

    I am glad you are telling everyone our secrets.

    • USN_RET

      He isn’t.

  • ziggy1988

    “And now, only now, as your forces start going deaf and blind, do the Americans mount a physical attack. American Air Force bombers, Navy warships, and Army artillery batteries start firing cruise missiles through the gaps in your sensor coverage. In some places, F-35 stealth fighters slip past your struggling radars; in others, EA-18G Growler aircraft pour on high-powered jamming. Each strike tears another node from your network. You can still see and communicate well enough to know the attacks are coming, but not well enough to stop them.”

    LOL, what a ridiculous fantasy! Mr Freedberg has absolutely no clue what he’s talking about. His fantasy would never even be close to fruition, because:

    1) While the US could disrupt and jam Chinese communications in the WESTPAC IF (and that’s a very big if) the above plan were to come to fruition, the Chinese ALREADY have a demonstrated capability to COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN US military communications in the WESTPAC by destroying the fibre-optic cable facilities on Guam and shooting down US satellites with their ASAT weapons.

    2) The ONLY bombers in US inventory that can penetrate China’s airspace safely are its 20 (yep, just 20) B-2s – and, as CSBA’s Mark Gunzinger warns us warns, even those will likely lose their penetrating capability by the 2020s (their stealth technology is 80s vintage). Not to mention the new LRS bomber might get axed due to deep budget cuts (sequestration and beyond), unless the useless F-35 program is cancelled.

    3) The F-35 is NOT stealthy (except in the frontal aspect, and even that only in the X, S, and K/Ku bands). All Chinese radars can see it from the sides and the rear; countadars can see it from all aspects. It would get slaughtered if it tried to enter Chinese airspace. Not to mention the fact that PLA hackers have already stolen virtually all the information there is to know about the F-35.

    4) The EA-18G would not be able to jam anything, as it would never get close enough to jam Chinese radar. Both Chinese IADS and PLA OTH radars would detect it from far away. It could easily be shot down by both SAMs and interceptors.

    5) The US Navy’s surface warships have limited missile magazines – limited even further by carrying lots of defensive missiles, as the CSBA points out.

    6) The Virginia class and the VPM are likely to fall victim to budget cuts – sequestration and beyond.

    7) The towed payload module does not exist anywhere except in CSBA policy proposal papers.

    • Kostas

      I disagree with all your points:
      1) geosynchronous telecom satellites are difficult to shoot down, the Chinese are trying to develop such technology but they are (probably) not there yet. In any case this will not stop the operations at a tactical/area of operations level, it will just slow down the communications with Washington DC
      2) China’s aerospace can also be invaded by F22 and F35 (see below)
      3) There is no invisible to radar (I think this is the way you understand and use the term stealth). There are LO aircrafts like F22. B2, F35. The F35 has an optimized LO profile over the frontal arc, where most of the threats will be coming from.
      4) The EA-18G will need to jam only the low frequency radars, this can be done from hundreds of miles away (less absorption of low frequencies by atmosphere), it doesn’t have to get close
      5) “limited” compared to what? in order to do what? If you want to perform strike missions, you will not send just one ship but many of them. Additionally you don’t plan to fight a war just with cruise missiles
      6) speculation
      7) that is the current status, do you know what will the case be in some years?

      • ziggy1988

        Ad. 1: This is way too optimistic, esp. considering ADM Haney’s most recent testimony on Chinese ASAT capabilities. He knows that the PLA can render the US military deaf and blind with these missiles.
        Ad. 2 and 3: Invisible to radar, no. That’s not what I meant. I meant very hard to detect by radar. The F-35 has a very limited degree of stealthiness – only in the frontal sector and only in certain radar bands. Big mistake – most of the threats will *not* be coming from the front. In A2A combat, since WW1 to today, about 80% of fighters shot down went down with their pilot unaware of the attacker… bc they were usually attacked from the rear, their most vulnerable quarter. And today, IADS like the S-300/400/500 and HQ-9 can pop up unexpectedly from anywhere, incl.. the rear, and attack you from there.
        The F-22 has all-aspect VLO, but not against VHF/UHF radars, is a big and hot airplane (and thus has a large thermal sig), and has an only 722 km combat radius. To be useful, it would have to operate from bases very close to China… bases the PLA can destroy easily, as Messrs. Clark and Freedberg have already noted in previous articles.
        4) If the EA-18G is used only to jam LF radars, it won’t be very useful – the higher-frequency radars (incl. VHF/UHF ones like those intended to counter the F-22 and F-35) will still remain a threat.
        5) Limited as in just 96 VLS cells on one Arleigh Burke class DDG. Limited still further by the number of defensive missiles (e.g. the SM-2, SM-3, and SM-6) they carry to protect the fleet. To wage war against China, you would need many thousands of cruise missiles – and some of them would get intercepted by Chinese IADS. No, you don’t wage war with cruise missiles alone, but they’re an important tool in your shed.
        6) This is not speculation. This is inevitable – as confirmed by the CRS’s Ronald O’Rourke – unless Congress somehow has a collective Damascene conversion and repeals sequestration. Can’t afford to buy two $2.6 bn boats per year with a sequestrated budget.

        7) Again, won’t be procured unless Congress repeals sequestration or funds the TPM by defunding something else.

    • The Dark Knight

      “LOL, what a ridiculous fantasy! Mr Freedberg has absolutely no clue what he’s talking about. His fantasy would never even be close to fruition, because:”
      Rather Ironic, considering the same could be said about the utter nonsense that you post, in response to 99 % of these articles
      You may want to stick to the french blogs, travel sites and dating sites and leave the discussion on defense, to those that actually have expertise on the subject

      • ziggy1988

        LOL! You, TDK, and expertise in defense… I know far, far more about these issues than you, Mr Clark, and Mr Freedberg COMBINED will ever know, son. Put up or shut up.

        • The Dark Knight

          HA!, sure you do
          Expertise that you have attained where exactly? At grad school? From reading right wing publications……please
          You’ve never spent a single day:
          -in the military
          -In the Intel Community
          -working for the DoD as a consultant or at a think tank
          –you’ve published nothing in any peer reviewed publications
          –you have ZERO domain expertise in anything related to defense.
          Sorry, but majoring in history, blogging and writing a few articles, doesn’t make you an expert in anything other than talking out of your backside and belitting those who do actually have experience in the industry and in service of this country.
          You’re nothing more than a wannabe tool
          Considering Mr Clark has been covering the Defense Industry longer than you have been alive, I think anyone would be inclined to believe, he knows what he’s talking about. While Mr Freeberg hasn’t been covering the Industry that long, I have no doubts they know more than you claim. Just because you don’t agree with their political stance on a number of topics, doesn’t mean they don’t know what they are talking about.
          And that’s the problem in this country with ignorant fools such as youself, you don’t know how to have a real discussion. All you can do is attack, claim the other side is an idiot or you’re blinded by the politcs and you rant and rave like you’re the only one, who could possibly have an idea what they’re talking about.
          If you approach your academic studies in this same manner, then I wouldn’t be surprised if you’ve been kicked out of school by now as well, which would explain your attitude towards real professionals who actually have or have had a long career, unlike yourself.

          • http://www.breakingdefense.com/ Colin Clark

            Gentlemen,

            No personal attacks please. Facts and assessment. Leave the attacks to face-to-face bar encounters.
            The Editor.

          • ziggy1988

            Notwithstanding what the Editor has written directly below here, I’ll say just for the record that:

            1) I have served in the military and have published several articles in peer-reviewed publications, all on the subject of history, usually military history (including Chinese military thinking); I’ve just submitted two new articles to peer-reviewed journals;
            2) how long someone has been writing about some stuff means nothing. The anti-defense propagandists at the NY Slimes who oppose US nuclear modernization have been writing on (and against) US military power for decades. Doesn’t mean they, or this website’s editors, know what they’re talking about – as their writings show.

  • TruthfulJames

    A couple of small points —
    1. With the PRC building bases on disputed reefs in the South China Sea, I would anticipate that they are also emplacing detection devices able to pop to the surface and indicate the presence of foreign “objects.” Certainly they are able to use mines for the same purpose.
    2. Submarines are built to slither quietly through the water, minimizing cavitation. Hulls have been constructed with the same objective. Attaching objects to the exterior of such hulls should, unfortunately increase the noise.
    Yes, these programs are useful as forward defense. I would suggest also that additional SS (not SSN), such as the DRV Kilos might make an additional contribution, if and when the Russian trainers disembark.