F-35B and C

Prime candidate for budget cuts: the F-35

 

Bob Hale knows budgets. He crafted them for the Air Force and he crafted them for the entire Defense Department. America faces a large spending spike by 2025 that grows even larger later. So, how can America manage this spending? Bob presents three approaches he thinks will work. Don’t get too depressed and read on! The Editor.

Defense Department spending requirements will rise sharply under current plans. How much will they rise? In a November 2014 study, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) put the size of the increase, often called a funding “bow wave”, at about $60 billion above current funding levels by 2025, then rising to $80 billion in 2030. (Estimates reflect increases above the fiscal 2016 base-budget levels of funding and are adjusted to account for inflation.)

Robert Hale

Robert Hale

Since DoD plans its budgets five years in advance the next president’s team will have to start immediately to shape their policies and programs to accommodate the bow wave. How will they do that? Given current threats to national security, I think there is a realistic prospect for increases in defense funding. That may meet some, but not all, of the bow wave needs.  Efficiencies will help reduce costs, but savings from them tend to be small compared to the size of the bow wave.

So, how to make up the difference? Based on many years of experience with making DoD programs fit within budget constraints, I believe much of the solution is likely to be achieved through cutting the total buys of weapons and programs combined with cutbacks in annual buys. They will be topped off by a few program terminations. Delays and smaller buys impose inefficiencies, but that will be the price of maintaining broad national security capabilities while accommodating budget limits.

There is always some funding bow wave in DoD plans but this one is big. It will largely be caused by new procurement programs (like the new ballistic missile submarine known as the Ohio Replacement Program and the Air Force bomber) and ongoing procurement programs that will be hit high-rate production in the 2020s (such as the F-35 aircraft and the KC-46 airborne tanker). Improving military readiness, combined with the ever-increasing complexity of DoD weapons, will push up operating costs.

An Ohio-class ballistic missile submarine.

An Ohio-class ballistic missile submarine.

Getting significant additional DoD funding may seem improbable in view of spending limits imposed by current law.  However, the defense budget historically rises when threats to U.S. security are substantial, as is the case today.  We are already seeing efforts in Congress to increase defense funding in fiscal 2017.  A broad budget deal under a new Administration could lead to higher defense budgets and, hopefully, an end to sequestration.  But even without the burden of sequestration, DoD budgets are not likely to increase by enough to eliminate the bow wave entirely.

Some services (especially the Navy) have called for the transfer of funds from other services to pay for what they term “national” programs like the new ballistic missile submarine.  But U.S. forces fight jointly, which means that all programs should be national.

F-35A head on

F-35A

I believe three approaches will be used to make defense programs fit within available budgets. I start with the approach least likely to be used widely and move to more likely ones.

  • Terminate or delay weapon and service programs. Thinning the herd of DoD programs, and leaving the survivors unscathed, makes for efficient programs.  But the United States wants to maintain broad national security capabilities, which requires a wide array of defense initiatives. Also, in the years after 2010 many lower-priority programs were terminated or cut back. As a result, relatively few programs are likely to be drowned by the bow wave.
  • Reduce total buys. Cutting back on weapon buys and other programs reduces costs and dampens the bow wave. This approach could affect big programs like the F-35 and the Air Force bomber, as well as smaller programs that make up much of what DoD buys. Fewer weapons mean greater risk in future conflicts, but the U.S. may have to accept that risk. To achieve savings quickly, reductions in total buys are often paired with a third approach.
  • Reduce annual buys. Smaller annual buys can lead to increases in unit costs because overhead must be spread over fewer weapons and services. Smaller buys also delay availability of new capabilities. However, the approach is popular because a wide array of programs remain alive, though with smaller buys, and budget savings occur quickly.  This approach has already been used to accommodate today’s budget limits. For example, DoD has trimmed annual buys of the F-35 aircraft to accommodate recent budget constraints. Reductions in annual buys will no doubt have to be imposed extensively as DoD formulates budgets for the 2020s.

The impending bow wave of funding requirements will significantly complicate the DoD management challenges confronting the next Administration. However, through artful use of the techniques described above, the Pentagon can limit inefficiencies while meeting high-priority defense requirements.

Robert Hale is a fellow at Booz Allen Hamilton. He was the Pentagon’s comptroller and chief financial officer from 2009 to 2014.

Comments

  • vegass04 .

    Little off topic but hear me out. I read today that Russia is modernizing its Kirov class battle cruiser and installing (by 2022) new navalized S-400 systems plus the new anti ship hypersonic Zircon missile with speeds of over Mach 5. In the mean time USAF and Boeing are bragging about their longest air breathing hypersonic flight (Wave rider) that was accomplished over 10 years ago. Also US Navy needs over 10 years for operational development of LRASM witch is basically a rework of JASSM missile and we hear absolutely no word of operational hypersonic system in US military. I think that’s sad. When Kirov becomes operational with Zirkon all current US Navy’s anti missile systems become obsolete. Wake up USA.

    • TomG

      Zircon isn’t operational, and has barely completed developmental testing. As for the Kirov, a ship that size is incredibly vulnerable to attack subs and aircraft, and the Russians have far less defenses against a missile attack than a single carrier group.
      The Russians are trying to catch up with where they were 30 years ago, let alone advancing capabilities. Their readiness rates are horrible, and their only operationally aircraft carrier had to be towed to shore because its machinery was in such bad condition.
      The Kirov could be formidable with a plethora of other assets to support it, but those do not currently exist.

      • vegass04 .

        I’m aware of the sorry state of Russian Navy in general but I’m impressed with their payloads. What happened to former CNO’s “payloads over platforms”. I do t see those payloads. There is no current developmental project for US hypersonic missile (maybe some experimental or black project) but generally speaking out missiles are ancient. Does the Navy really expect to break through A2/AD with Subsonic unstealthy Tomahawks? Really?? And what about subsonic LRASM while even Brahmos can outrange it and outpace it. All these new toys (Zumwalt, F-35, Ford class, America class) don’t mean jack s… if you don’t have high end missiles to shit fro them, and we don’t. In the mean time operational rail gun or laser weapons are far more in the future then Zircon or Brahmos 2. I simply can’t understand that US military in general skipped supersonic missiles altogether. Just can’t understand it. A mix of subsonic super stealthy and fast super/hypersonic missile is the name of the game and we didn’t even started playing

        • Rocco

          Money!!!

      • Rocco

        I think you sent getting attacked by sub’s & aircraft?? I would think sub’s as no jet with out an anti ship missile will not be in range of it!!

  • originalone

    Having watched the “cold war” crash, yet in reality, it’s still going on, the question about all this: “exactly what makes the U.S.A. any different? Both Russia & China are modernizing, regardless of whether or not they’re creating, reverse engineering, stealing, buying from others, the technology. It seems delusional to rebuild U.S. forces in Europe, which will costs ?? $$$, as well as modernizing the services an d still paying the costs to defend all those other countries. At what point does the U.S. declare “bankruptcy”? The task of being the worlds cop is impossible. The only benefit goes to the suppliers to the DoD, at the expense of the rest of the population/infrastructure. As the author points out, it’s doable, but there’s still the costs, high costs.

    • UH34D

      Agree with you there…the cost to population/infrastructure. I realize we have to protect ourselves but, in my opinion, too much is determined/decided upon by the fear factor at DOD. I believe what needs to be done better is; look at everything we have in the pipeline technologically/weapons systems wise and cull the list down to those that we can demonstrate will work most effectively/cost effectiveness. It can’t be like a child in a toy store wanting every toy in the place. I believe DOD has gone overboard with its wish list.

      When it comes to spending at DOD, I like to remind/suggest people read the Cross of Iron speech by Eisenhower. He pretty much covers it all there when it comes to defense expenditures. Some will claim the speech is dated and we live in a different world but, the same principles apply no matter the era.

      • Rocco

        Well said!!

        • UH34D

          Thank you, much appreciated. Have to ask though, have you read or listened to Ike’s, Cross of Iron speech? Pretty inspiring and my model for the most part of what a Republican should be…think I can say that as a registered Republican. Not a perfect President, none are but, think he had things correct for the most part and are applicable today.

          • Rocco

            Hey no I haven’t yet but I definitely will! I’m a big proponent of speak softly & carry a Big Stick & carry it out swiftly not slap on the hand & say this is can act of cowardess & unacceptable & we will enact sanctions!!!! Please!!

          • UH34D

            I believe Ike knew how to strike a balance. He was also in a unique position in his life to have witnessed the failure of mankind when it came to war. It couldn’t help but influence his opinions, ideas about what he believed America should look like and how to accomplished our goals as a nation. Sure, he had his foibles as a human being (spent a lot of time playing Bridge and golfing) but, as a president, ya gotta give your brain a rest. I’ve never felt Americans appreciate any President considering the amount of info/data thrown at them on a daily basis…far more than ANY job out there. We have never, and never will, elect a perfect President. But, Ike, I think he was as close as any of those we immortalize like Washington, Lincoln, , Teddy Roosevelt, FDR.

          • Rocco

            Amen !! A while back say 10 yrs tom selick portrayed ike in a 2 part for TV movie that was great check it out if you haven’t.

          • UH34D

            Yep, have viewed a few times.

          • Rocco

            Nice job portrayal!!

      • herbloke

        Some will claim the speech is dated and we live in a different world but, the same principles apply no matter the era.
        The same bozos claim the Constitution is dated.

        • UH34D

          I can’t say I can recall anyone claiming the Constitution is dated. When written by our Founders, they made sure to include a process for changes to be made by future generations. Now, some of the changes made since the original may not sit well with some but, the majority agreed to the Amendments made over the course of time. Thank goodness our Founders had the intelligence and foresight to understand America would change. Now, I believe parts of the Constitution are immutable. Like Freedom of Speech, the right to bear arms, the right to vote, etc. I doubt we will ever see an attempt at an Amendment to null free speech as an example. If one reads the letters, documents, diaries, communications extant of our Founders, we get a pretty good idea of what they expected of the new United States and its citizens…pretty much unambiguous for the most part…in my opinion.

          • herbloke

            Well some have called for the abolishment of the constitution. The Right To Bear Arms is trampled upon constantly so there ya go.

    • Rocco

      We made our bed yrs ago!! Time to make others to lie in it!!!

      • originalone

        Point taken, but considering that the U.S. has been suckered all these years, while the E.U. resists, do you really think that’s possible?

        • Rocco

          No but whishfull thinking!! But if we leave them helpless Russia or jehad will gain territory & make it harder to eliminate or get them out!! Putting us in never ending war.

          • UH34D

            Word is, Russia is pulling out of Syria. Hope so, may make things a little easier to get a handle on there…if the Arab/Iranian world steps up to the plate and figures out a way to clean up the mess they created in Syria.

          • Rocco

            Their pulling out!! Not that I was aware probably because they realize there’s nothing there that interest them but Rock!!& or get out of the cross fire!

          • UH34D

            The New York Times, USA Today and a few other news outlets have carried the story. Word is, Putin has decided to pull the plug on Syria. Think Stratforce site also carried an article.

          • originalone

            Your last 6 words, at the rate we’re going today, it seems we have already started down that road. Of course, you might call me skeptic of the subject, but as others have pointed out too, IMHO, until the mind set is replaced with positive reality, this delusional belief that is driving the “brain trust”, will only drive us deeper into the toilet. Perhaps I’m of that “wishful thinking” you mentioned, that Russia learned its lesson as far as occupying the “world”, as too costly which led them to bankruptcy, and wont do it again. Simply put, unless all the people are enslaved, it’s impossible to achieve.

          • Rocco

            Yes maybe in our life time we all hope, but if a bastard like Putin gets the opportunity & everyone is at its weakest meaning Europe in their economy I bet he will take advantage of this! Theoretically.!!

          • herbloke

            Simply put, unless all the people are enslaved, it’s impossible to achieve.
            Well said. You first start by disarming the population.

          • originalone

            “Tongue in cheek”? Try as they may, the only way that happens, is over my . .. . . well, you understand.

  • Bill Eliason

    Your F-35 picture is an “B” model not an “A” model.

    • Rocco

      Ahhh no!!!!! It’s a A model!!! Before you Mk that kind of reference Mk sure you got it right!! The picture shown is a a model about to take a drink!! Also if you look at the port side wing it has a bulge with a closed door!! What do you think that is??? Hmmm what does the A model have that the B&C don’t have internally that everyone biched about???!!!

      • AFRet05

        There are B & C models in the photo. Doing another search on the image via Google shows another variant of the same photo identifying 5 B models & a C model, all at Pax River for testing.

        • Rocco

          Yes I initially didn’t see the 1st photo! The 1st bird with the painted tails is on display at DC! And I saw in person.

      • Curtis Conway

        F-35A is the only one with an internal gun. The hump and wide flat area missing behind the cockpit is your first clue, and it looks like the picture was taken from a tanker. the F-35A is the only one with Boom Refueling. Everyone else is Hose & Drogue, and that ain’t on this bird.

        • Rocco

          That I an A it has the gun on the port wing!! Take a look at the opening pictures of the B models & one C in a group shot one the flight line!! They have no gun bulge. Sir lol & yes its from a tanker the picture as I mentioned.

          • Curtis Conway

            Two “C” birds at the end of the line. Look at the tails. This is the PAX test fleet.

  • bobbymike34

    We could stop funding 300k to 500k new refugees that will cost anywhere from $3 to $5B annually FOR starters.

    • Rocco

      They should be exiled!!

  • Don Bacon

    Terminate the current F-35 procurement program for sure. The system is still deep in development after fourteen years with many faults and shortcomings which have been well documented and reported. In fact the project office has lately been unable to award a primary contract for Lot 9 (FY2015), so the handwriting is on the wall. JSF partners are also not on board for significant quantities, having bought only 24 aircraft to date.

    Use the money saved from not buying useless faulty prototypes to procure systems which actually perform. Postpone further JSF production until after the Milestone C production and deployment decision in 2019, which is the way it is supposed to be done.

    • leroy

      Too bad that’s not ever gonna happen Big Don. But keep on typing away. Your over-indulgence in comments sections all over the Internet has had the opposite effect of what you desire. You are now a source of amusement. No one takes you seriously (except maybe Eric and Pete). You are like my neighbor’s barking chihuahua. A terrible nuisance, but a watchdog that can do no harm. Me? I am looking forward to Air Force IOC. Tell the folks how it’s just around the corner. Guess what? From there the program will only get stronger.

      Now – when do you start work on the B-21?

      • WHOHE

        I’m starting to believe he’s a Boeing hack. He has to be. Nobody but a Boeing hack can go from forum to forum and post the same sht about F-35. BreakingDefense can talk about STD’s in the military and this fool would somehow make it about the F-35.

        • Rocco

          Lol lol lol OMG that made my day!!

      • Don Bacon

        @ leroy
        You are the one who mentioned canceling the program which I have never done here.

        If the F-35 isn’t able to fly it’s full flight envelope by AF IOC because they either don’t have a permanent engine fix OR they need a major redesign of the engine or airframe, then I think the program should be cancelled. Except for the “B”s for the USMC and UK. And they should replace the “B”s 496 bulkhead with a titanium one no matter what.

        And also you have spoken against ad hominems, which I haven’t done on BD, here.

        Let’s debate the topic – not throw stones at people with opposing POVs.

        Now, do you claim that converting combat-capable squadrons to ineffective units by issuing them useless faulty F-35 prototypes is a good thing? At a time when the nation needs more ships, for one thing?

        • leroy

          “If the F-35 isn’t able to fly it’s full flight envelope by AF IOC because they either don’t have a permanent engine fix OR they need a major redesign of the engine or airframe, then I think the program should be cancelled.”

          I stand by that statement big guy. If by the time the AF decides to declare IOC (and I expect that to happen this year – probably this Summer – though a 2 – 3 mo. extension would be OK), if the engine or airframe were found to be defective (unable to allow the aircraft to pull +9/-3 gs) requiring major redesign of either or both (again – airframe or engine), then I would not want the program to continue past what has already been built. No way I or the American people would stand for 3 – 5 more years of delay. This is why it was a mistake to cancel the GE/RR F136 (assuming the airframe itself is OK. I believe it is). For quality purposes. For competitive purposes.

          You? You have decried everything about the aircraft for years – even as LM and the subs made substantial progress. And you never disclose your basic motivation for wanting this program cancelled (as revealed in your previous online posts and website). Why not be honest with people and let them know where you stand on the military, defense spending, and on peace activism? Are you embarrassed?

          Anyway – F-35 will go into FRP, and you will have been proven wrong about this fighter. Me? If LM cannot deliver an aircraft that works – I have no issue with looking elsewhere for better hardware. Most lawmakers and the general public would probably agree. I don’t expect that will happen.

          • Rocco

            Very well put! I seriously doubt he has an answer! He’s is made of Teflon!!

          • leroy

            You’re right there Roc!

      • Rocco

        Lol!!!! No matter he’s an idiot!! & he will never relent. I think he gets paid to say this or……….!!!! He’s not a real person as he has no emotions!

    • Foton

      You’re kidding, right?

      With the amount of money that has went into the program. It had better pump out quite a few F-35’s. Even if the jets are only as reliable as Russian or Chinese aircraft, the US practically set on the purchase. Barring some gigantic fiscal disaster.

    • Uniform223
      • Curtis Conway

        I was so proud of the last ‘At Sea F-35 Test Period’ when they landed in the rain on the edge of the hurricane. Foul weather combat aircraft and very capable Naval Aviators.

        • Rocco

          Amen,!!

    • Scott Foley

      Stop the nosence. I’m no F35 fan. I’m no fan of that many eggs in single basket. I believe in the high end/low end mix force of air frames. But to halt the F35 will only cause more pressures. We should learn for the fools that cut the F22.

      Actually, we are in a worse position now then then. Our fleet is older now and has even more hours on it. We can’t afford starting anew. We are stuck with the flying turd and once it is in the hands of our flyers we will get the tactics right to make it effective. But to halt it will kill us.

  • Curtis Conway

    “Some services (especially the Navy) have called for the transfer of funds from other services to pay for what they term “national” programs like the new ballistic missile submarine. But U.S. forces fight jointly, which means that all programs should be national.”

    The “US forces fight jointly” is a Red Herring argument. Strategic is STRATEGIC regardless of service and is under one commander for that reason. If Strategic influence doesn’t work, we are in big trouble. Conventional forces are at their lowest levels since WWII. The weapons caches are very low, and not being replenished fast enough. The United States is in debt, and some want to continue gambling? Strategic MUST be ROCK SOLID with no questions, otherwise the Free World will suffer, and already is given the current national leadership proclivities. If adults are not returned to the White House soon we will be in a shooting war . . . soon, if we can stem that eventuality at all (I fear). Europe, Asia, Africa, the Arctic, how do you prioritize it all at once? The forces are already too small, and everyone saying they are not are the folks who have NEVER been there and done that, and do not understand the concept of Proactive Presence in the first place. No points for second place here.

    • H. H. GAFFNEY

      Ah, adults in the White House! Trump? You gotta be kidding.

      • Rocco

        Let’s hope he don’t get in!! We all need to push for john kasich. Hopefully trump trumped himself by promoting vilance at his ralleys & people start to realize he’s all mouth & no action.

        • 10579

          What Kasich is part of the problem.He was not sitting in a corner during his 18 yrs in congress.Nor was he smart enough to save the stockholders their 600 billion dollars Lehman Bros lost while he was hired as a financial expert along with Jeb.But they walked away with their millions.

          • Rocco

            Is anyone else better what choices do we have!! Trump will start WW3 ! I don’t want a lieing Hispanic, or woman!! He can learn by his mistakes as any decent person can!!

          • Scott Foley

            They said the same of Ronald Reagan and he ended the Cold War without ending the world.

            We need Mattis to straighten out the mess. No forgien nation will mess with him and he takes care of his people. And any pol messes with him he’s still a Marine and can take of them.

          • Rocco

            & who is he?

          • Rocco

            I guess nobody any good that you can’t backup!!

      • Curtis Conway

        Adults don’t put foreign fighters back on the battlefield to kill Americans (and our Allies) again.
        Adults do not negotiate with terrorist, or nations that sponsor terrorism.
        Adults know what ‘Nuclear Fail SAFE’ is, and makes sure that if everything ‘goes to hell in a hand-basket’ WMDs will remain in safe hands, and not the hands of our enemies, and enemies of the Free World.
        Adults know what Weapons of Mass Destruction are, and do nothing to promote them (Iran), employ them (Syria) without having those who use them reap the consequences of International Law, even if unilaterally.
        Adults draw lines in the sand (establish boundaries), and rise to the challenge when transgressors cross the line (dish out the consequences for those bad actions).
        Adults respect the rule of law, and set the appropriate example.

        One can always tell the difference between ‘Parents’, and adults with children. This administration from top to bottom has acted like adults with kids in a permissive environment. Our problem is, this environment (the Community of Nations) is not so permissive, and the bill is coming due.

        • Rocco

          How come oboma did!!??

          • Curtis Conway

            Amen!

          • Rocco

            Yeah & more than once!!

        • 10579

          Did you say you like Kasic.

          • Curtis Conway

            Where do these people come from. I’m a Cruz man.

      • Scott Foley

        Gen. James Mattis, USMC (retired).
        For President 2016

        • Rocco

          I have no problem with an x military person in office but you endorce him with out giving details on what makes him a good choice other than being a retired general??

    • 10579

      Keep your Effin hands off my social security.I paid for 40 years into to it.I don’t care if you have to use spit balls to fight a war if you knew how to fight a war but keep your effin hands of money that is not yours.

      • Curtis Conway

        My folks are on Social Security also, as will I be one day. By the way, the Social Security Trust Fund is full of IOUs that was taken by Congress years ago. There is no Social Security Trust Fund in reality. Only our economy, and the fidelity of Congress (I actually wrote that out loud) enables this to remain true, and one wonders how long it will last given out current congresses proclivities. If you want to pick on someone, pick on those who give money to those who have not paid into the (or a) system like all of us have. A habit predominantly exercised by the Democrat Party of the past and present, but now joined by Republicans in developing the habit.

        If we cannot defend ourselves, this is all for naught.

      • herbloke

        If FedGov decides to confiscate your SS aint a drun thing you can do about it except b@#$% & moan. There is a precedent for governments to confiscate citizens wealth when they overspend.

  • changey

    His solution misses the root cause of the DOD Bow wave.
    $20 trillion federal debt is slowing economic growth from historic averages of 3%+ to around 1%, ie the “new normal”. Nearly all of this debt accrued due to welfare spending and the wars of the last 15 years, most though welfare spending. Its spun out of control and is consuming tax dollars at an ever increasing rate.

    A second obvious root cause is over committed alliance system. Given the requirements to defend 75% of the worlds surface, we have neither the force structure or funds to defend it. We have to shrink our defense commitments.

    If we spent 10 years working the debt down to Reagan era levels, curtailing the growth of welfare spending we’d see much more rapid economic growth and healthier federal budget growth. But we wont so we have to cut many of today’s allies loose.

    • Marcus Pun

      Actually as per discretionary and mandatory budget spending combined, military is 16%, Food assistance is 3%, veterans spending, 4%. Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are 53% of spending but they are also paid for. For now. So military spending is more than 5 times that of food assistance, of which a 3/4 fraction of the ag budget. If your goal is cutting spending, you might do well to look at the roughly 90 billion that is spend on copororate subsidies and tax breaks. We have a lot of large profitable companies who’s effective U.S. tax rate is under 5%.

      • herbloke

        So tax corporations more? Guess what will happen then, prices will rise. A vicious cycle.

        • Marcus Pun

          Of course prices will rise and should rise. Why should companies and their customers who pay higher taxes have freeloaders leech off of them. Roads do not build themselves. Teachers need to be paid. etc.

          • herbloke

            Then people will stop buying stuff which means less money going around so vicious cycle again.

          • Marcus Pun

            and yet that is how the free market needs to work

          • herbloke

            Markets aint free if the government keeps messing it up. Companies should be allowed to fail without getting bailed out by taxpayers. Now that is truly a free market.

          • leroy

            Ah so there you are Herb. Ol’ leroy gotcha! Remember I gave requirements for a 6th gen fighter over at Sol’s? Here’s what I said the USN needed post-F-35:

            “Max speed mach 3+, 100K ft max alt, supercruise at Mach 1.9, combat range 1,500 NM, internal/external stores, stealth configurable, 9G, etc. ”

            Here’s what you said to your ol’ buddy leroy:

            “*1500 NM* Leroy, to get that kind of range and also get supercruise aint possible with current engine technology. You can get fuel savings but not speed and vice versa.”

            Then leroy the magnificent said:

            “ADVENT plus RAMJET.” – which referred to a variable bypass engine combined with a RamJet. Like this:

            https://a.disquscdn.com/get?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lockheedmartin.com%2Fcontent%2Flockheed%2Fus%2Fnews%2Ffeatures%2F2015%2Fsr-72%2F_jcr_content%2Fcenter_content%2Fimage_3.img.jpg%2F1400599103878.jpg&key=XXZ10Y-OMECwEd4Ek8mgyg

            Then you said:

            “Ha ha, all future promises …”.

            Well guess what? LM has done it, and the age of a fighter with Mach 3+ is about to arrive. An age where an ADVENT engine can provide high fuel savings travelling at sub-Mach, decent fuel burn up to Mach 3, then ultra high-speeds up to Mach 6. The age of the Mach 3+ fighter is just around the corner!

            http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/781f6c08-ead6-11e5-bb79-2303682345c8.html

            Herb my BIB. Be careful when not agreeing with your good friend leroy. I don’t say things that ain’t so – don’t make things up. F-35 is a great airplane, and will protect the U.S. and our allies well into the 2050s. Then? Well, watch for the big technological jump in fighter aviation. From propulsion to advanced sensors, self-protective missiles, lasers, 100K+ altitude, night vision cockpit canopies, AI, supermaneuverability – the works!. If leroy says it, it’s gotta be so. Remember – I am your go-to source for matters aviation. That said – we remain best friends! : )

          • Rocco

            Yo bro!!! Lol when anything has a speed approaching mach 2.5 about 1700 mph the skin needs to be made of titanium!! As the Black Birds of Lockheed back in the day!!

          • leroy

            They have new materials Roc. Lockheed is gonna use them to make the SR-72. Refer to the linked article.

          • leroy

            Oh oh. They put the article behind a paywall. Let me see if I can find another one. be right back!

          • leroy

            Here:

            “Lockheed Martin Corp. said Tuesday it was on the verge of a technological breakthrough that would allow its conceptual SR-72 hypersonic plane to reach six times the speed of sound, or Mach 6, according to reports. Marillyn Hewson, CEO of Lockheed, said that a hypersonic demonstrator aircraft the size of an F-22 stealth fighter could be built for less than $1 billion.”

            “Carvalho also said that Lockheed has been working on an engine for the hypersonic aircraft with Aerojet Rocketdyne, a rocket manufacturer, Financial Times reported. He added that innovation was “much more rapid” now than in the past because of Aerojet’s engine work and Lockheed’s work on aircraft materials, the report added.”

            http://www.ibtimes.com/lockheed-martins-sr-72-hypersonic-plane-could-be-built-under-1b-likely-be-ready-2030s-2337383

            Mach 6. Size of F-22 fighter. New materials. What lay ahead for aviation is incredible! Just don’t tell Smedley Bacon. He’ll be on every website trying to stop the program. Look – even found him today:

            http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2016/03/15/Why-F-35-May-Not-Be-Combat-Ready-Until-2022

            Ol’ Smed goes to Google every day and puts in “F-35”, finds the latest story and puts his comments in trashing the program. This has been going on for years and years. He will never accept the truth – that F-35 is going to work, and be put into full production. Oh well. Look for him on other planes – probably B-21! lol!! I know you laugh your head off Roc. It is funny stuff!

          • herbloke

            Ya know they never got that spaceplane concept to work after all these years. Remember the Single Stage To Orbit mantra?

          • leroy

            C’mon Herb. Just admit I gotcha! No big deal. Competition between friends – that’s all. No big deal. : )

          • herbloke

            Nah, I never believe manufacturers claims especially about military gear. I’ll wait until I can talk to an actual pilot or mech in person.

          • Rocco

            You have friends!! Or at an airshow??

          • herbloke

            I have lots of friends in aviation. I even have a few friends in who used to be in LMs management.

          • Rocco

            So …….. Is this why you don’t support the F-35!!! Maybe. Or is there another angle with you??

          • herbloke

            I support proper testing with prototypes regardless of the type of equipment.

          • Rocco

            Testing never stops!! If you knew what you were talking about you wouldn’t say that!! & that jet plus all aircraft before the F-35 wouldn’t fly! To hone skills is by application just like anything else in life! Leave it at that! Reply not warranted! If you do means you need to defend yourself! I know your deal.

          • herbloke

            Ha hardy ha. Initial testing is for prototypes not production aircraft. Prototypes usually stay on in service as test guinea pigs.

          • Rocco

            No kidding Jack wagon I worked on one!!! Now again GFYS

          • herbloke

            You worked on an F-35? Really? If you did I don’t think you can post on here then….

          • Rocco

            No you idiot! The only F-35 I saw was in DC in the Smithsonian! In pax river before you were born!!

          • herbloke

            Touchy, touchy, the temper tantrum again. I asked if you worked on the F-35. That requires a simple yes or no.

          • Rocco

            You misunderstood! What I ment was as you asked concerning experimental aircraft like guinea pigs yes I did but obviously not the F-35 wasn’t even on paper then!

          • herbloke

            Apologies accepted….

          • Rocco

            Lol I knew about the SR-72 unmanned!! He never responded to you’re comments if he’s a communist!

          • herbloke

            Just use your employee number. That happens to work you know.

          • Scott Foley

            Amen

          • 10579

            Only if they teach and children and students learn.Not the PeePoor education system we have today.Ask some of our future leaders who are students in higher learning schools who a certian person was or where is a certian place is or who fought the war of 1812 they will come up with some answer but in 75% of the cases they will not.We went from No.1 in the world in science ,math and learning all things necessary to get ahead in the world to a dismal No. of 30, in the world. Give them more POT I hear it makes those idiots think they are learning just like some of the politicians.What?

          • Marcus Pun

            especially worse in areas where 29% believe Obama is a secret muslim and there is no global warming.

          • herbloke

            Well he did go to religious schools and you can’t be an ex-muslim ya know. Just saying….

          • herbloke

            The dumbing down of America. From a producer nation to a service nation where all your call centers are located outside the USA.

          • Rocco

            The first time I agree with you!!

          • herbloke

            There is always a “first” for everything!!!

          • Rocco

            Yeah & probably the last!!

          • Scott Foley

            Amen

            Mattis 2016

          • Rocco

            Good point!!

          • Scott Foley

            they teach any of you economics and inflationary causes? You want to see real suffering in the land of plenty go ahead enact these relics of Kesian slavery and see how fast things go to hell. I remember having mortgage rate of 18.49%.

            Also road are built with both federal and state gas tax dollars. Some states Ali apply excise and auto sales tax dollars to local road costs. So those who use the roads are paying for them thru their use of fuel.

            As for teacher they are over paid public employees who years ago lost sight of their mission. My neighbor retired from teaching after 22 years with an 80% pension based in her three highest years which averaged 122k for 180 days of work. She retired because the business she worked in the summer was doing well and went full time in it while double dipping with full pension with medical. The town we live in will be paying her pension and medical cost for 40 years for 22 years of work.

          • Rocco

            She earned that pension!! So why should she deny herself of it because she go better work!! You’re a A hole for even mentioning her on this blog!! Who do you think you are!! & has nothing to do with this!!

    • Scott Foley

      Our war debt is a one time expense not recurring like welfare cost and we do get a return from it as long as the politicians don’t squander it.

      • Rocco

        Really you have proof of that???!!

  • Weapons Hot

    The “Bow Wave” is a deliberate construct of the Pentagon and the military-industrial complex expressly intended to create the largest possible funding request. Weapons programs don’t go over budget because of inflation or technological growth or related problems, they are made to go over budget in order to get the least amount of hardware for the most amount of money and the inevitable calls for even more money in the future. Did anyone seriously not foresee the Joint Strike Fighter of the 90’s evolving into the $400B program it is today. Or the Ohio-Replacement sans a new SLBM suddenly developing an “urgent” requirement 4-5 years from now for a new missile for the boats, with the Air Force also advancing the call for a new ICBM, and surprise, surprise, top up the bow wave another $100B. Lots of money, lots of career opportunities for the generals, admirals, and the connected elites in the bureaucracy.
    If an effective and affordable military establishment armed with systems that the rest of the world would go in their pants at the prospect of facing were the actual objective, its easy enough to accomplish. But that isn’t the objective.

    • Rocco

      That’s unsubstantiated!!! In other words when you by a car SUV etc ,you can either Mk a deal plus choose the economy model instead if all the Bell’s & whistle limited!!! Show proof of that comment!!!

      • herbloke

        When you buy a car the R & D is already figured into the price. Don’t know about you but I rarely see cars going in for “upgrades” once purchased.

        • AFRet05

          I have disagree with that. You don’t see Ford, Toyota, Chrysler, etc., figure out the amount needed to recoup the R&D costs. The R&D costs are a sunk cost regardless if 1 or 1M are produced. The DoD is the only org that does include it (Per Unit Cost) and then wonders why they breach when the number of units changes (decreased or occasionally increases).

          BTW, Tesla did a software upgrade to improve the mileage of the Model S. My Leaf will be undergoing an upgrade to the wireless system (still has 2G onboard). They also did a software upgrade for the brake system when I had it in the shop (routine maintenance).

          • Rocco

            Thankyou!! At least somebody got it!! Lol.

          • herbloke

            The R&D costs are a sunk cost regardless if 1 or 1M are produced.

            Nah man, it’s not a sunk cost at all. They use it to figure out the break even point. It may end up being sunk if they design an absolute POS.

            As far as your upgrades on your vehicles those are software only. Do you really need 2G in your vehicle to drive? The brakes seems like the only one that affects day to day operation. Pretty sure that you would not even know the difference if an upgrade was not done.

          • Rocco

            You have no idea what your talking about & neither do I!! Know what your talking about!

          • herbloke

            I think what I post is self explanatory. Caint make it any simpler.

          • Scott Foley

            DA gets it

          • Soccer

            Yeah to you’re self!

          • Rocco

            Thankyou!!

          • herbloke

            Well you gotta read and understand English ya know!!!

          • Rocco

            He or she obviously agrees!!

          • Scott Foley

            Well GMC upgrade my Yukon that I bought in 2014 with a new upgraded 4th gen model in 2015. Not to mention my 2015 Silverado which was brand new model in 2015 got a refresh for 2016 getting a new front end.

          • herbloke

            Those are not upgrades but new models. An “upgrade” would be going from analog instruments to glass cockpits in an aircraft. Like I posted before cars usually don’t have to go back to the dealer for “upgrades” unless its like Afret’s expensive golf cart.

          • Rocco

            Not necessarily!! That’s you’re opinion! An upgrade is anything that’s an improvement mechanical, electrical &&&&& cosmetic!!

          • herbloke

            Cosmetic is not much of an upgrade except in the looks department. Looks don’t enhance performance unless you are a celebrity.

          • Rocco

            Whatever still an upgrade not that anything with cars has to do with this topic!!

        • Rocco

          I don’t think were on the same page!!

          • herbloke

            You mean the shiny F-35 brochure page?

          • Rocco

            Yes the one you can’t read!!

        • Scott Foley

          No but we do trade them in for the newest UPGRADED model every two to three years. Or are you still driving the same car from 1972 like our f15 & F16 drivers? Or or an M1 from 1979? Or a USMC AAV7 Amphip from 1972?

          To many short sight politicians believed the hype of a post Cold War peace dividend and the current administration really didn’t think we needed weapon systems or troops to man them given their additional cancelations or replacement programs and draw down on troop levels. Funny how removing 2 combat brigades for EUR and a fighter squadron and air control squadron months before Russia annexed Crimea then invaded the Donbass happened right after we removed all our armor.

          • herbloke

            American cars are built to last only 2-3 years and seem to last as long. It’s not in Detroit’s interest to build you a car to last longer than that hence the need to trade them in every 2-3 years. They become an upkeep nightmare after that.

            An aircraft can last 20 years and military aircraft longer as they don’t fly as much as say a commercial airliner. Aircraft are upgraded. You still have all the performance in those old airframes, they may have changed the avionics but the flight specs are still valid and they can still hold their own.

            The M-1 still have design features that is copied by newer tank designs. The M-1s only needed self defense upgrades and maybe a diesel engine retrofit and get an autoloader.

            They have spent enough money to upgrade the USAF with new aircraft twice over for a trickling of new “Fighter To End All Air Combat” aircraft.

          • Rocco

            Military aircraft fly every day & to full potential! They are not toys to be baybeed !! As for cars depending where you live don’t get its limits pushed like a hot rod etc or race car,sorry you’re opinion is off base!!

          • herbloke

            Nah man, look at the hours on each airframe. Fighters fly like 300+ hours a year, that’s in 365 days. They fly a few days a week. The heavies get more flying time but not compared to a commercial carrier aircraft. I’ve tracked 757s over a week and they get over 8 hours flying time every day.

          • Rocco

            I know about hrs on airframe!! I was a PC on the F-4!! & they flew in my day 24/7!! Were not talking just commercial aircraft that carry people!

          • herbloke

            Wow, 24/7 huh? I bet if you looked at the overall time you would be about at the average for each airframe. Fighters can only fly so many hours before being pulled from service for maintenance. They may be flying 24/7 but that is with a bunch of aircraft.

          • Rocco

            You know something dude shut the F-in up ok I know what it entails !!! Now don’t reply to me again A hole!!!

          • herbloke

            If you knew what it entails then state that. Average age of the fighter fleet supports my statements.

          • Rocco

            I don’t have to justify anything for you right wrong or indifferent!! Nothing supports you’re stupid opinions now GPS!

          • herbloke

            No worries mate. Don’t be all upset. We are all adults on here for the most part. State your business and we either agree or disagree. Don’t be mad.

          • Rocco

            Yes that’s fine I have no problem with that! But when I make a point its substantiated! Nothing further so don’t beat around the bush with me please!

          • herbloke

            I counter your points then I get a pout….and a temper tantrum….

    • AFRet05

      Most of the weapons have a definite “shelf life” and need to be replaced. Take that date, allow for 10-20 years for the replacement to be developed and fielded and you get the initial “new start” timeframe. If something gets deferred, it doesn’t fix the problem, just prolongs it. Now combine multiple, costly programs competing for the same pot of money and voila – a “bow wave”.

      • Rocco

        Agreed!!

  • John King

    Hale has a point about reducing total and annual buys. The Pentagon needs to start with cutting the planned 2,443 F-35 buy based on the contribution that UAV’s will bring to the table. Example, if UAVs account for one-third of the effective firepower, cut 800 F-35s off the end of the planned procurement. Or, cut one-third of the annual buys for the same effect. As to any increasing unit costs from a reduced annual buy, make the LM prime contractor and the whole supply chain find the design and manufacturing “efficiencies” Alan Greenspan like to talked about that was happening in the U.S. economy but which we never saw inside DoD.

    Same case for the Air Force bomber. If they want 100 (which is a completely arbitrary number) make them partially offset it with recognition of the contribution of some of those supersonic missiles we need.

    • Rocco

      Not in agreement! This will shortfall inventory 20 yrs down the road as the current gen 4 F-15/16’s will be retired! Then what!! We have to watch what Russia & China r doing!!

    • Scott Foley

      Ouch just get rid of all aviation. This is the kind of thinking that led to the loss of the f22. The 2,443 number is based on needed capabilities to meet security and war fighting commitments. What UAV are you talking about buy in replace of it? We still don’t have an UAV to pair with either 4th or 5th gen fighters. That is a whole other development and procurement program with its own costs.

      No one talks about increasing the budget to be more in line with 4% of GDP completed with a pro growth finically policy helps reduce the budget issues and allows us to make up for the last 20 years of reduced investment. We are in the same place we were I the 70s. Our foes closed the capability gaps over a 20 year period as we stayed stagnant during the 60s and 70s.

      • Rocco

        Don’t quite follow what your talking about; I get raising the budget maybe even more than 4% ! The rest of your comments are all over the place dude & we were not at a short fall in the 60 & 70’s!! We had more military hardware at time other than WW2!

  • John Allard

    Well, the Army could stop WASTING it’s money buying the UH-72A Lakota. I’ve yet to hear anyone speak to the advantages of buying that POS helicopter from Airbus, while Army aviation is being drastically reduced and the tried and true OH-58’s are being retired for a helicopter that can’t fill the void.

    I just read today, the Army bought 12 more Lakota’s. It’s like watching a family member continue to make bad financial decisions, it’s very frustrating. I’ve had several family members serve in Army aviation going back to Vietnam, and they all agree the UH-72 is a flying piece of garbage.

    It may not get rid of the bow wave, but stupidity like this doesn’t help it either.

    • SomeGuy

      Dude the last OH-58 I stuck my head in last summer was falling part. These tried and true and worn out aircraft are being replaced by the Apache, not the Lakota.
      The Lakota is for domestic use and training. I don’t like it either, but it was never meant to replace the Kiowa on the battlefield.

  • Nicholas Trueblood

    instead of drawing down the number of items purchased, which raises overall cost per item, enter into bulk buys with allies which reduces the overal costs or cancel the programs and go with a cheaper replacement. They need to also do something about the range and hitpower problems. its all fine and good if they cant be seen, but if it can never reach the target, it aint good for crap.

    • herbloke

      What ya gonna do, hold a gun to the allies head and force them to buy arms? The world is in a fiscal crisis. Beans or bullets.

      • Rocco

        Mexico has both!!

    • Rocco

      Good point,!!

  • Supernova1987

    They have no choice but to try to optimize the use of legacy planes with the 5th gen planes. For that the USAF could arm the F-15s and F-16s with long range missiles. Maybe an air-launched ESSM variant would do the trick ( maybe with a regrained motor to not go too fast ), 4 per F-15 on the fuselage stations, and 2-4 per F-16 on stations 3,4, 6 and 7. Most F-16s could at least have the new center display to increase the SA as much as possible to take those long range shots effectively. For air to ground, they need some sort of extended range weapon like extended range SDBs that would be launched from the F-15s and F-16s and guided by the F-35s. Maybe an air launched variant of the GL-SDB ( 1 and 2 ) could have a 150 miles range and a flight time that wouldn’t be too long.