However, one Pentagon source familiar with the cyber and electronic warfare capabilities of the F-35, EA-6B and the Growler was more sympathetic to the other planes’ EW capabilities.

“The F-35 complements the EA-6B and EA-18G — not replaces. That may change in some long range plans but in the near future they complement each other,” the source said in an email. “Right now we need them both.” And so the discussion goes. But Gen. Hostage was crystal clear in his assessment.

Stealth Is Not Invisibility

“But in the first moments of a conflict I’m not sending Growlers or F-16s or F-15Es anywhere close to that environment, so now I’m going to have to put my fifth gen in there and that’s where that radar cross-section and the exchange of the kill chain is so critical. You’re not going to get a Growler close up to help in the first hours and days of the conflict, so I’m going to be relying on that stealth to open the door,” Hostage says.

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But stealth is not invisibility, especially for fighters that must have tails for maneuverability (rather than the B-2 stealth bomber’s tailless “flying wing” design). Both F-22s and F-35s will be spotted at range by low frequency radar. The F-35′s cross section is much smaller than the F-22′s, but that does not mean, Hostage concedes, that the F-35 is necessarily superior to the F-22 when we go to war. In fact, Hostage says that it takes eight F-35s to do what two F-22s can handle.

“The F-35 is geared to go out and take down the surface targets,” says Hostage, leaning forward. “The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.” But stealth — the ability to elude or greatly complicate an enemy’s ability to find and destroy an aircraft using a combination of design, tactics and technology — is not a magic pill, Hostage reminds us.

 

F-35 First Designed To Kill Advanced Surface to Air Systems

Bear in mind that the F-35 is the first US aircraft designed to the requirement that it be highly effective at neutralizing S-400 systems and their cousins.

“The F-35 was fundamentally designed to go do that sort of thing [take out advanced IADS]. The problem is, with the lack of F-22s, I’m going to have to use F-35s in the air superiority role in the early phases as well, which is another reason why I need all 1,763. I’m going to have some F-35s doing air superiority, some doing those early phases of persistent attack, opening the holes, and again, the F-35 is not compelling unless it’s there in numbers,” the general says. “Because it can’t turn and run away, it’s got to have support from other F-35s. So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after. But the F-35s can be equally or more effective against that site than the Raptor can because of the synergistic effects of the platform.”

The F-35, critics say, can be spotted by low frequency radar (as can almost any aircraft, no matter how stealthy) and isn’t as good at dogfighting as is the F-22. But Hostage says, as do other senior Air Force and Marine officers, that an F-35 pilot who engages in a dogfight has probably made a mistake or has already broken through those IADS lanes and is facing a second wave of enemy aircraft. The F-35, he says, has “at least” the maneuverability and thrust and weight of the F-16. The F-35 is to the F-22 as the F-16 is to the F-15. The latter aircraft are the kings of air to air combat. The F-35 and the F-16 are the mainstay of the air fleet, designed for both air-to-air and air-to-ground attacks.

Comments

  • ELP

    Oh really? Physics is not classified. (Google: Assessing Joint Strike Fighter Defence Penetration Capabilities ). No F-35 has passed OPEVAL or an operational readiness inspection. This will not happen for years; if ever. Or as someone once said, “You say you have something better than ‘Star Wars’ and ‘Gone With the Wind’, yet your record is ‘Ishtar’ and ‘Howard the Duck’. You will have to do better than, ‘trust us’ and ‘it’s classified’. I had to check the link at the top of the browser. I thought I somehow got onto the ‘Second Line of Defense’ website, or worse, ‘The Lexington Institute’. but oh my gosh, I am not. Of the 3 aircraft highlighted above, only the F-22 has a chance of survival. You see, back in the ATF days (which became today’s F-22), red-force analysts discovered that stealth for stealth’s sake was not good enough, you needed extreme high-altitude and speed in order to foil the no-escape-zone solutions of many kinds of threats. The F-22 is there specifically to clear the high-end threats. Without that, there is no air supremacy. The JSF Joint Operational Requirement Document (JORD), composed in the 1990′s and signed off on at the beginning of the last decade assumed that there would be hundreds of combat-capable F-22s to take on those chores. We all know how that turned out. As an aside, the red threats that are building out there are gaming to beat the F-22. Do that to enough capability and you have the F-35 dead. Easy. If someday when there is an operationally representative F-35, it has to, in practice combat, beat the F-22 and the Typhoon (representing something close to SU-35 ability and similar). Do that, and you have something. Now, as an aside, Industry (you know which one) has been marketing the F-35 as a go-it-alone combat aircraft (2007 brief to Israel et al). By virtue of the JSF JORD (and from what we see today), that is not so. We have a lot of talented people building the wrong aircraft. We need them to be building the right aircraft. That is the fix. A painful fix. But less painful than what is not too far in the distance. Remember, the Death Star was too big to fail.

    • lightning_bolt

      Yes, by all means. The death spiral is so strong that the JSF would be sucked into the black hole that it has created. Just look at what has happened in the last few months. First the South Koreans refused to buy the F-35, then the turkish backed out from the 100 F-35 they had always planned on ordering, and now the news that Australians are buying second hand eurofighters instead of the F-35A’s. With so many cancellations the F-35 is falling like a house of cards.

      • billy

        ….”and now the news that Australians are buying second hand eurofighters instead of the F-35A’s.”

        Where do you get this news from?

        • SMSgt Mac

          It’s called ‘sarcasm’ Billy. The only response suitable to the drivel that called for it.

          • billy

            It seems some people have turned drivel into a tag-team event. They have drivel conversations with each other.

          • ELP

            F-35 fan base.

          • eric_palmer

            Delusional armchair general+stealth expert+testing expert+ Fake secdef but basically an expert in searching the internet and having 6-8 hours on a daily basis to look for f-35 articles on the net. The bad ones get copy pasted on the blog, the good ones get trolled.

          • Bat Man

            General Hostage?

          • Mehmet

            Thanks for the comments. In the meantime you can take a look at some kewl F-35 photos:

            F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Pictures

    • eric_palmer

      So the F-35 will never pass OPEVAL. Ready to stand by it, or would it be just like the other NOT EVER comment you have made in the past about trapping on a carrier.

      • ELP

        Could not find a name yourself to troll with?

        • eric_Palmer

          its the best name a troll could possibly acquire. And why was your last post only 3 lines? Don’t you have an entire word document to copy / paste?

    • Peter_Goon

      What is obvious to all, Eric, is how the JSF fanbase is only able “to play the man, not the ball”, that hoary old logical fallacy known as “Argumentum ad Hominem”.

      They have been doing it and relying on other logical fallacies such as “Appeal to Authority” and “Straw Man” for years.

      Why is that?

      Because that’s all they have got since the F-35 JSF Program and the resulting aircraft designs are based on logical fallacies and bullshit a.k.a “a total indifference to what is real”.

      Let’s see what SgtMac and others have to say about the following statement by Gen Mike Hostage:

      “Because it [the F-35A JSF] can’t turn and run away, it’s got to have support from other F-35s. So I’m going to need eight F-35s to go after a target that I might only need two Raptors to go after.”

      • jensen

        Buddy, where is your submission to parliament committee this year? repsim have done AWAL too

    • NOWAYJOSENONAME

      THEY BLEW UP THE DEATH STAR!!1! HE MENTIONED STAR WARS, HE MUST KNOW WHAT HE’S TALKING ABOUT. FUCK USA AND GEN HOSTAGE, WAR STAR-WARS KID! HERE’S HIS RESUME! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPPj6viIBmU

  • truth-be-told

    There should be a countdown to see how fast Eric runs to every article written about the JSF with the same nonsense. He should be allowed to compete with his personal bests and there should be a award for him at the end of the year. Perhaps then he can stake his claim to be an expert, other than someone who has way more free time then anyone else on the net

    • billy

      Do not be surprised if their time isn’t “free”. Do not be surprised if these clowns are being paid to spend so much time denigrating the JSF. I think the Chinese are terrified of this aircraft.

    • ELP

      Says the nameless internet troll.

      • truth-be-told

        Says the Shadow_secretary of defense of an Aussie basement.

  • mac&cheese

    In the race between ELP and DON BACON, ELP has won. Perhaps the DON is a late riser.

    • http://www.usmc.mil @notrizzo

      Where is Gary? Either the moderators blocked him or his meds finally kicked in…

      • billy

        Drowning his sorrows in a bar in his local Chinatown.

        • Super-stealth-expert

          Garry has been given the “space X” department these days, so he is no longer attached to the JSF side of the business

          • billy

            Oh…:)

      • mac&cheese

        Its Friday, Garry gets the weekend, Eric and Don hold the fort on friday’s

        • ELP

          Nameless Internet Troll — (anyone counting?)

          • billy

            I can count a few in here. And you’re one of them.

          • ELP

            The difference is, people know who I am. You are who, exactly…other than a nameless troll?

          • billy

            Yeah,I’m just looking at your followers. A journalist from Taiwan. Someone else called Tanaka who prowls internet forums and says one word “hai”, a guy called triple 555 who has made one comment (and that’s in Chinese) and someone else with a name in Chinese characters. Wu-mao.

          • eric_palmer

            That’s true. People know who you are and can ignore you from the start. Good point.

  • CharleyA

    And yet the US Navy seems pretty clear that F-35 by itself will not be enough to defeat emerging defenses. So who do you believe? When the JSF program was being run by USAF officers, lots of misinformation about the aircraft was promulgated, from its projected cost (remember $35M URFC?) to schedules (now 8 years or so late.) It took leadership from a Navy officer, VADM Venlet, to resurrect this program and get it back on track. USAF LTG Bogdan continues the progress made under Venlet’s watch – interesting that Bogdan is not from the tactical fighter community, but I digress. The point is that USAF leadership will do and say anything to protect their precious F-35 – even retiring whole fleets of perfectly good aircraft that are viable to 2028.

    LM and its surrogates have been pumping out a lot of PR of late, and feeding articles to various friendly news sources, so something is up. Whether it is an attempt to eliminate competition in the domestic market (by trying to influence the closing of the SH/Growler line) or to secure a few more orders for FY15, its hard to tell. I’d like to see what the next lot negotiated price will be….

    • http://www.usmc.mil @notrizzo

      It’s important to note the different number of aircraft that will be available to a USN commander vs a USAF one, with deck space for only ~40 or so strike aircraft (and no F-22s like the USAF) you have to solve that 8 F-35s for 2 F-22s problem differenently. One key way to do that is with the Growler.
      Different problems, different solutions.

  • H. H. GAFFNEY

    General Hostage is not America’s strategist. He is running a program, and is such is its advocate. Much of the talk about what is essentially tactics (“taking out IADS”) has to do with invading the Chinese mainland — which is insane. It is not General Hostage’s choice; it’s the President’s. And whatever we do, it’s going to be joint — and joint takes careful preparation, not rushing off into the blue upon first shots. Of course, we lived all across the Cold War expecting the Soviet surprise attack. They didn’t — and they had their own mobilization problems. Please give me a theory of deterrence against the Chinese like we worked on in the Cold War. So far, I’ve seen nothing — just weenies at low levels doing tactics.

    • Mike

      Mr. Gaffney,

      I’m reminded of the rise of gold during the Star War’s period as that “Window of Vulnerability” was closing….. Then came April 11th, 1987 and gold fell as the Soviet Union went financially bust and the Cold War ended….

      China is really simple… Stop buying their products….. It appears that an increasing number of ordinary Americans are” connecting the dots” and buying “Made in America” over “Made in China”… I believe we are far and above their biggest client……

      • H. H. GAFFNEY

        You’ll just have to talk to American businessmen about that. There have been no Chinese salesmen in America (though they may be trying to make investments here now); only American buyers going to China since it “costs too much” to make things here — got to pay people here a living wage, which they do not like to do — cuts into the bosses’ bonuses.

        • Mike

          Cycles sir, cycles….. I believe we are simply repeating the Long Wave Kondrotiev Cycle of 1929-1982 and the new cycle began with the latest Stock Market Crash and Depression of October 2007, under those other darlings of the Republican/CUW world, Cheney/bush…

          As customers stop buying their Chinese products, they will revert to rebuilding the American factories. Either that or other American businessmen will replace them….

          Americans are, in ever increasing numbers, following the dots and that is good for America… Similar things happened as we clawed our way out of the Republican brought Depression
          of the 1930′s And with those changes, American wages will begin to increase, “for the good of America” and income inequality will drop much as it also did in the above time frame…

    • SMSgt Mac

      “Not America’s stragegist”? He pretty much has the final say when it comes to Tacair, and he doesn’t run a program (not a PEO). As per his AF Bio:

      “Gen. Mike Hostage is Commander, Air Combat Command, Langley Air Force Base, Va. As the commander, he is responsible for organizing, training, equipping and maintaining combat-ready forces for rapid deployment and employment while ensuring strategic air defense forces are ready to meet the challenges of peacetime air sovereignty and wartime defense.”
      At his level, national strategists describe their needs to him to find out what is ‘possible’. Together they iteratively shape the strategy around the realities and then he takes those strategies and translates them into capabilities that will suit/support the strategy.

  • PolicyWonk

    So sayeth the General – and what an inspiring story about the mighty F-35!

    However: all is not ducky with the F-35, here’s the bad news.

    http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/digital/pdf/articles/2014-May-Jun/F-Pietrucha.pdf

    • JimBobJoe

      Good article. Still waiting for Mr. Palmer to show up.

  • Curtis Conway

    With all due respect for General Hostage and I do respect him because he leads from in front (F-22 Oxygen Problem), it is impossible to make a statement as categorically stated as he has in this incident. We are in a constant ‘measures’ – ‘counter-measures’ struggle, and there is no such thing as a “Perfect Stealth” system. When combat operations begin, the more energy one can place in the Elecrtro Magnetic environment, the better off you are, and is money in the bank on the safety side of the equation. The USAF has not invested in that bank (Electronic Attack). Perhaps some thought should be given by the USAF in this area. Several Squadrons of EA-18G Growlers in the USAF would be a good thing. It’s just difficult for USAF pilots to land on something that is not standing still and several thousand feet long.

    The flexibility of the F-35B is yet to be demonstrated even in exercises, and may be more difficult than realized by most. The RIAT flyby and Queen Elizabeth visit are cases in point. One cannot just pick out a piece of concrete or pavement on the planet and decide to operate F-35Bs on or from that piece of real estate.

    In addition the EA-18G is one of the only aircraft to score a kill against an F-22 in a simulated combat exercise.

    Better Safe Than Sorry.

    Plan For The Worse, and Hope For The Best.
    Granny was RIGHT, and the General needs to go back to fundamental principles.

    • Don Bacon

      F-35 operational testing won’t start until 2015 at the earliest.

      • Wang Guanzhong

        Get your $hit straight. Your colleague in the department (ELP) is saying that it (operational testing) will never occur. Having this sort of discrepancy paints the entire effort as being badly coordinated and may result in a cut in your weekly pay cheque. Consider this as a warning.

        • billy

          Off to the re-education camp with him.

    • PolicyWonk

      Indeed, the USAF has put all their eggs into the stealth basket. The navy, to its credit, has continued to invest in EA-18G’s/electronic warfare, and is still on track to buy a number of F-35′s (it has been reported that the tail-hook problem has been resolved).

      The Russians and Chinese have had decades to work on their radars and detection systems since we’ve deployed F-117′s and B-2′s, and none of our stealth platforms have been tested against sophisticated adversaries.

      Our navy is playing it safe, and here’s hoping the USAF didn’t screw up massively by betting the farm on one technology.

      • MathewT

        The USAF should have put all the eggs in the advise received from a person named PolicyWonk and in his wisdom. So much so that Mr PolicyWonk is giving free advise instead of charging an arm and a leg in the consulting profession.

    • bcsd2014

      Curtis, there is a reason why USAF has been training its Electronic Warfare Officers (EWOs) with the USN at Whidbey Island for years. Public domain: “The Air Force has worked with the Navy for
      16 years since the EF-111 Raven was retired and left the Air Force with
      no fighter type electronic warfare aircraft other than the EC-130H
      Compass Call. It is with the Navy’s EA-6B Prowler and EA-18G Growler
      that Air Force electronic warfare officers can gain knowledge and better
      prepare for the future”. Pretty telling. They’re investing in “knowledge”, but not systems. USN: EA-18G. Check. Next Generation Jammer. Check.

      • Curtis Conway

        Noted. Good comment. There are even some USAF pilots who have perhaps taken a hook? Cross decking should not just be “EWOs”. In my humble opinion, a fast tactically significant Electronic Attack aircraft has qualities all its own that the EC-130H will have a hard time filling. USAF strike packages really liked to piggy back on USN strike packages ingressing into the combat area during Storm & Shield. This wisdom has evaporated? Don’t think so! Hardkill on the transmitter is a good idea.

      • Curtis Conway

        I spent some time in the periphery of this USAF EW environment, along with my NAVY time. The USAF concept is somewhat different when dealing with Electronic Threats. A common JOINT Threats Program Office should have already been formed in DoD (if it has not already been and I’m not aware of it) that deals with a common and comprehensive Threat Database across the board. That Joint program office, and the database they maintain, should drive ALL service threat monitoring capability, countermeasures activity, Electronic Attack criteria, and attack matrix. This part of mission planning for any platform surface or air, should be directly plugged into this database driving the upgrades to the threat matrix in as close to real time as we can manage. This kind of activity has been recognized for over three decades, and I’ve yet to see it come to fruition. If it exists . . . .give me a heads up.

  • Don Bacon

    The F-35, after thirteen years and many delays, is still early in development. DOD expects to complete developmental flight testing in 2017. Less than three-quarters of its requirements have been tested and proven. The production decision is scheduled for 2019, and it looks like that date will slip yet again. General Hostage will be long gone by then. So sit back and relax, there isn’t really an airplane yet, just a bunch of faulty prototypes.

    What GAO Found, Mar 2014:

    Delays in developmental flight testing of the F-35′s critical software may hinder delivery of the warfighting capabilities the military services expect. F-35 developmental flight testing comprises two key areas: mission systems and flight sciences.
    Mission systems testing verifies that the software-intensive systems that provide critical warfighting capabilities function properly and meet requirements, while flight sciences testing verifies the aircraft’s basic flying capabilities.
    Challenges in development and testing of mission systems software continued through 2013, due largely to delays in software delivery, limited capability in the software when delivered, and the need to fix problems and retest multiple software versions.

    So any F-35 performance claims at this time are pure speculation.

    • PolicyWonk
      • Don Bacon

        How the Brits and Marines plan to support such a complex system as the F-35B at small remote locations, afloat and ashore, is beyond me. I guess it’ll be like in my car, the orange light comes on and I say ‘so what.’

        • truth_hurts

          “How the Brits and Marines plan to support such a complex system as the F-35B at small remote locations, afloat and ashore, is beyond me. ”

          Please don’t say that. The USMC and the brits were counting on you to divulge ” how to operate the F-35B” in one of your posts around the internet. They have no ideal of how to go about operating it, and relied 100% on your input. If its beyond you, then its pretty much beyond both those services.

      • Truth_hurts

        Old news. Britain cancelled the F-35B and is opting for jump jet version of the Eurofighter typhoon. The first prototype should be flying at Farnborough and RIAT soon and may even fly over the QEC ceremony. They have managed to add stealth to it and remove the second engine. It looks very similar to an F-35B.

    • I know Everything

      Copy paste. I bet you and eric exchange notes in your daily briefings on how to attack the “internet”. One question though, If you make the same point on two different news articles, do you still get paid the same amount even though its less work?

  • Viper550ful .

    So whaddayaknow, the F-35 has BETTER stealth characteristics than the F-22.
    And this time it comes straight from the top…
    This should shut people up claiming that the F-35 isn’t a stealthy plane.
    It is.
    Wonderful. It keeps getting better and better.

    • Don Bacon

      never tested

      • Viper550ful .

        How do you know?
        Of course it has been tested. It’s just plain high school physics.
        They are already out there flying against possible enemy systems:
        http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/04/17/jsf-tests-against-russian-chinese-air-defenses.html
        Again, the F-35 BEATS the F-22 in terms of RCS.
        Remember that. You will hear that A LOT the coming years.
        Better come to terms with it. This is as official as it gets. Straight from the top.

        • Don Bacon

          I know because I read the test reports. If a claim is not tested and evaluated it doesn’t exist, simple as that.

          We did get a news report in April:
          Six Air Force F-35A Joint Strike Fighter aircraft are currently at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., to test the aircraft’s stealth and sensor technologies against representations of Russian, Iranian and Chinese air-defenses.

          But I doubt that we’ll hear anything about it because — “much of what it does remains highly classified.” hah –It’s highly classified but they can still report it as fact, without evidence, is what they do. You too.

          • Viper550ful .

            You got access to the official test data concerning highly classified data?
            Yeah right, pull the other one.
            (or prepare to get a visit from NSA/CIA)
            It was tested years ago and passed with flying colours.
            Here you go:
            http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-04/lockheed-martin-s-f-35-fighter-jet-passes-initial-stealth-hurdle.html

          • Don Bacon

            The program office has collected radar cross-section
            information on the Air Force version of the aircraft and “we
            are very pleased, very pleased,” U.S. Navy Vice Admiral David
            Venlet, the program manager, said in an interview.

            That’s not the way it works in systems acquisition. More is required than a statement by the program manager that he is pleased, or even “very pleased.”

            The Director, Operational Test & Evaluation (DOT&E) is the principal staff assistant and senior advisor to the Secretary of Defense on operational test and evaluation (OT&E) in the Department of Defense (DoD). DOT&E is responsible for issuing DoD OT&E policy and procedures; reviewing and analyzing the results of OT&E conducted for each major DoD acquisition program; providing independent assessments to SecDef, the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics (USD(AT&L)), and Congress; making budgetary and financial ecommendations to the SecDef regarding OT&E; and overseeing major DoD acquisition programs to ensure OT&E is adequate to confirm operational effectiveness and suitability of the defense system in combat use.

          • Viper550ful .

            It doesn’t matter, does it?
            You can only be satisfied if they deliver you the highly classified official test data personal. (which you will never ever get)
            And even THEN, you will claim it’s fabricated…
            Well keep fooling yourself, I and others are extremely pleased that the F-35 is indeed an very stealthy plane.
            Maybe you should talk to the general, why he is (*cough*) “misleading” the public with statements like that.
            One of the leading figures in the United States Air Force cannot have possible access to hard data and test results, because some nobody on the internet, calling himself “Don Bacon” doesn’t have that info either…
            Such a cruel world…

          • Don Bacon

            If the Director DOT&E determines the F-35 has X degree of stealth in various measures than I and others would accept it. That’s the way the system works. It doesn’t work by taking un-evidenced speculations from biased individuals. That’s what has contributed to so many systems acquisition failures over the years.

            Now even if Hostage said we conducted tests (although he’s not the proper authority) and found X, Y and Z I would listen and evaluate. But simply to make unverified claims from a Lockheed brochure, a company that has continually failed? No. Go fish.

          • Viper550ful .

            “I would listen.”
            No you won´t.
            You already made up your mind and nobody is going to change that.
            Did the director of DOD&E ever commented on classified stuff?
            No,of course not, it wouldn’t be classified anymore, would it.
            Some people should not have access to classified info. You are one of them.

          • Don Bacon

            Your getting personal is an indication (if one were needed) that you have no case.
            Thanks.

          • eric_palmer

            No case. This isn’t a trial. For all we know you could be an unemployed 30 year old living in your parents basement.

          • Taxpayer Funded Sockpuppet

            It doesn’t matter if he’s an unemployed 30 YO living in his parents basement…because he’s right.

            We’ve all seen the claims of biased people working on this or that program, claiming they’re the greatest thing since sliced white bread…right up to the point the program is cancelled because of non-performance. Over, and over, and over.

            Unsubstantiated claims…are worthless. When DOT&E says they’re “satisfied”, then I’ll buy what they’re selling.

          • eric-palmer

            Of course a discuss board member has so much more wisdom and credibility than an officer that has the known and classified capability of the fighter on his fingertips. Please ask the honorable Mr Bacon to share with us some more wisdom about some other military programs because what he says is always right and what informed people say is always wrong (as per him).

          • Jimmy McNulty

            When its a toss up between a decorated general who knows his “stuff” and an internet armchair secretary of Defense, most folks would choose the latter. Even the services routinely follow Don Bakon around the internet to see what he is saying. Most of then turn off their minds when they receive a briefing from someone who actually knows whats going on. I have also read that the head of DARPA follows Mr Wonk (known here has Policy wonk) and bases the direction of her department to properly align with the wonk’s views. She even eats the same food he eats. Take a case in point of Mr Palmer known lovingly as ELP. He is officer on special duty, on deputation to the government of the Australia as a chief advisor on matters of policy to the RAAF. Thats his level of penetration. In fact until recently the website of the RAAF modernization white paper lead one to Mr Palmer’s blog. They changed that once another Mr Kopp objected that he had making this sort of noise for longer.

          • Admiral-Sweetman

            Apparently sources in the RAAF confirm that while the RAAF chief was getting a “classified” briefing on the F-35 he and his associated showed a lack of interest and were seen browsing Eric palmer’s blog on their iPAD’s. Even during the ROKAF competition DAPA and the ROKAF officials were seen browsing ELP’s website on their giant Galaxy Note II’s.

          • LonelyObservables

            I totally agree. If the director of DOT&E personally invites me to his office, offers me some coffee, donuts or if the secretary of defense arranges for me a guided tour of area 51 where I can see the various secret projects in development I may be inclined to believe. I was recently flown to Sweden with all costs borne by the swedish defense industry. First class all the way. A real taste of their hospitality. From there I went to Russia, again red-carpet-all-the-way and the radar makers over there told me facts about their systems that would open eyes. They were routinely picking F-22′s training at Nellis from Russian air bases using very powerful VHF radars. Its a new technology that America does not have. VHF. Remember those three letters, it will be the thing that brought down the american empire. V (Vee) H (ech) , F (Efff). I have also heard they plan to use their cable tv antennas to detect stealth, and small children can turn satellite dishes into stealth-killers.

          • ELP

            Appeal to authority,

          • ELP

            The “it’s classified” meme. Sorry. Try again.

          • eric-palmer

            Of course nothing should be classified. The Secretary of Defense should personally visit your lair (basement) to give you a classified briefing on the program and on all other military programs that may have classified elements. Because you are so important and convincing you is critical to the US and partner nation’s national security.

          • eric-palmer
          • Viper550ful .

            Ok, from the other article on this site.
            Suppose I could get you a classified briefing, the this will probably happen:
            ” …that each country went in to discussions with the Pentagon with a great deal of skepticism.But once country representatives received the most highly classified
            briefing — which I hear deals mostly with the plane’s cyber, electronic
            warfare and stealth capabilities — they all decided to buy. That kind of
            national and fiscal commitment from other countries may say more about
            the aircraft’s capabilities than anything else.”
            But you are not going to get that.
            Neither should you.

          • walter sobchak

            Sir can you share your classified briefings with us. Not the ones that you received from the USAF, but the classified briefings you received from the folks over in a big a$$ building in shanghai that was recently in the news.

          • ELP

            Ignorance from yet another internet troll. I am anti-communist.

          • walter sobchak

            Its ok that you are anti-communist, thats all well and good. Now get back to the topic and share with us those juicy classified briefings from your friends in Shanghai.

          • ELP

            Believing the “it’s classified” meme shows your ignorance.

          • walter sobchak

            I am not privy to classified briefings. I am also just a common citizen and not an important “information warrior” to whom the Secretary of Defense, head of testing give classified briefings. It is quite clear that someone in your position is entitled to these briefings, since you are vital to the US and Australian national security.

          • ELP

            You are just a troll. You always will be.

          • walter sobchak

            I am what I am. You on the other hand are a legend in the making. I am so happy that in case there is a ww3 we have you on our side.

            P.s. Do not call me names. You’ll enter a world of pain.

          • ELP

            Which means zero when looking at the DOTE 2011 (including the “quick look” report), 2012 and 2013 reports. Parroting LM/DOD talking points is not analysis.

          • Eric_Palmer

            The DOD has long outsourced analysis to Palmer and Palmer LLC an Anti-Communist think tank made up of basement dwellers and armchair generals.

      • Real-Don

        Of course, never tested by you. And until the DON tests it, it remains untested

      • RebeccaBacon

        Its been 9 years and 64 days since you left the basement. You have become so fat that we have been unable to TEST whether you can actually fit through the staircase without damaging the rails. That ability has not bee tested. I am sorry son, that I have to resort to talking to you on the internet, but this was the only option left for me.

  • CharleyA

    “The F-35′s cross section is much smaller than the F-22′s, but that does not mean, Hostage concedes, that the F-35 is necessarily superior to the F-22 when we go to war.”

    Is the General saying the RCS of the F-35 is smaller that F-22? That would be news.

    • Viper550ful .

      He is.
      And says “much smaller”. This is indeed news.
      Either the F-22 is not such a stealthy plane after all, or the F-35 is one hell of a stealthy plane, building upon what they already knew from the F-22 program and others.
      In a way it makes sense, since it’s the newer tech.

    • Don Bacon

      Stealth is a much more complex issue than an RCS number. It involves different frequencies, also visual, EM, infrared and acoustic
      That’s why it must be tested and evaluated.

      • truth-be-told

        Speaks the armchair stealth expert

      • Wang Guanzhong

        No need to explain it to them. Just bash the F-35. Our job here is to talk negative about the fighter and not take it ourselves to pass wisdom onto the uninformed. The less that know how stealth works the better for our J-20 and J-31.

    • Jeb Hoge

      I theorize that he’s (not) saying that in maybe head-on aspect, the F-35A might be. Smaller wing, smaller tails, smaller inlets.

      What I’m reading into this is that the F-35 is going to have to operate like the F-111. Stay fast and avoid direct confrontation of airborne threats. If you’ve got to fire an AMRAAM, do it off-aspect and skedaddle.

  • billy

    Much gnashing of teeth in China.

  • Carter Lee

    It will be interesting to see how one flushes all those F-35′s and F-22′s into the air with the Chinese kicking of the game with a massive ballistic and cruise missile attack obliterating all their bases?

    • KAB

      The thing about China using conventional ballistic missiles against land based targets is that they also have nuclear ballistic missiles and early warning systems can’t distinguish one from the other, which means that our forces might respond with nukes in the heat of the moment.

  • john

    I thought that the F-22 has a lower radar cross section than the F-35. Learn something useful every day.

    The US seems to have a shortage of the finest air combat craft for the coming decades – the F-22. A 4:1 superiority in killing enemt fighter seems like a huge advantage to me.

    Perhaps the flying wing concept can be used in a air to air fighter in the near future. While it might not be maneuverable enough to survive a dog fight, detecting those beasts would be really difficult. You cannot hit what you cannot see.

    Anyway, a very useful article. Thank you.

  • Don Bacon

    Back when the AF wanted money for F-22, it had the smaller RCS. Now it’s different, for obvious reasons(money).

    November 25, 2005: The U.S. Air Force, in it’s effort to get money to
    build more F-22s, has revealed just how “stealthy” the F-22 is. It’s RCS
    (Radar Cross Section) is the equivalent, for a radar, to a metal
    marble. The less stealthy (and much cheaper) F-35, is equal to a metal
    golf ball. The F-35 stealthiness is a bit better than the B-2 bomber,
    which, in turn, was twice as good as that on the even older F-117. Much
    older aircraft, like the B-52, have a huge RCS, which makes them very
    easy to spot on radar. But with a smaller RCS, it’s more likely that the
    aircraft won’t be detected at all.
    http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20051125.aspx

    • Viper550ful .

      2005.
      That is a long time ago…
      It hasn’t come to your mind that since then the F-35 went into development and eventually into production and that during that development for several years they might actually have improved a thing or to, to a point it now beats the F-22 in stealth?
      Love how things are so static in your mind.

      • Don Bacon

        Oh, has the F-35 shape changed since 2005, four years after the design program started? I didn’t know that.
        Oct 2001: SDD contract awarded
        Feb 2006 first production F-35A

        But I agree on one point: It was a long time ago, with little to show for it except billions mis-spent.

        • eric_palmer

          Hope you get paid for this. I mean it must take some effort to wake up in the morning, get a coffee, some donuts and hit google every day to find new f-35 articles to comment on. I know copy/pasting does save time but i bet you do this for 6-8 hours every day. Try to get some sunlight. Put your shoes on, go upstairs, just get out of the basement for a full day. Go out in the sun and get some Vitamin D.

          • billy

            These shills get paid fifty cents a post. Wu-mao.

          • truth-be-told

            That explains why they copy/paste so much. I support a salary hike to at least 10 bucks a post, that way there effort will be better coordinated, they’ll have some money to upgrade their blogs, and perhaps even try to bring up some actual research rather than copy pasting stuff all over the www.

          • billy

            Ten bucks a post? Jeez, I dunno about that. Don Bacon’s liable to squirrel it away and skip that rundown building in a nondescript area of Shanghai and emigrate to California. Open a grocery store or something…harangue his customers about the perils of the F-35.

          • Wang Guanzhong

            We have taken notice of the wages and will increase them at a suitable time.

          • billy

            And so you should.

            Good to see conscience and a sense of proletarian solidarity has jolted you from the error of your ways.

            After all, when one reads this….

            http://www.icij.org/offshore/leaked-records-reveal-offshore-holdings-chinas-elite

            or if you prefer this

            http://www.icij.org/project/zhong-guo-chi-jin-rong-jie-mi/ji-mi-wen-jian-pi-lu-zhong-guo-jing-ying-de-hai-wai-zi-chan

            it’s enough to make ya sneeze.

          • ELP

            It must take time an effort to be a nameless Internet troll with air power fund of knowledge that you yourself could write inside of a matchbook with a large-sized crayon.

          • eric_palmer

            Aren’t you running low on chips and soda?

    • eric_palmer

      The bums have lost. Get a job sir!

      • billy

        He has a job. He is a paid Chinese troll.

    • eric_palmer
      • Mike

        Come on Eric, that is not necessary….. I’ve followed Don’s comments for a long time, and I’d be quicker to believe that he has “been there done that”…. Even I don’t agree with all his points, but give the man credit, he does know one heck of a lot…

        • Don Bacon

          He’s not Eric– my guess is that he’s a Pentagon sock puppet.

          – In March 2011 The Guardian reported that the company Ntrepid had won a $2.76 million contract for “online persona management” (commonly known as “sockpuppetry”) operations from the U.S. military. The contract is for the creation of “fake online personas to influence net conversations and spread US propaganda.”

          • Mike

            That is a sad day when the military is funding internet propaganda within this country on that level….. Back in my day, the media reported a lot of our good days and bad… Of course, they did go out of their way to not inform the news media when they really “screwed up” … Those things would slowly leak out, sometimes months later as guys involved rotated home…. LZ Lima in the Ill Drang in November 65 comes to mind…

          • Taxpayer Funded Sockpuppet

            But, but, but…I’m a REAL boy!

          • ELP

            “my guess is that he’s a Pentagon sock puppet.” Shack!!! or just “sock puppet”.

          • Wang Guanzhong

            Sir such a short post is not going to cut it. We need at least a dozen lines. This sort of sloppy work is not acceptable and may warrant a re-look at your employment with us. We may have to transfer you to other departments and get Garry back to the JSF. His work with Space X is done.

          • Unit 61398

            Your masters have taken notice of your “sloppy” work here. Expect to be reprimanded. Your blog may even get defunded. Work harder, up the time to 12-14 hours. Cut and Paste more articles. Fabricate stories, do what you must. The JSF must loose orders from Australia, Turkey, South Korea, Japan, Israel, Great Britain, Italy,Norway. I hear Canada is going to choose the F-35. Your entire strategy needs to change because clearly it is not working. How come the Australian air force does not base their decisions on what they read on your blog? What sort of Air force is it. Are the Canadians not reading your blog? What about the turkish? Work harder or we will take our business elsewhere.

          • eric_palmer

            Please do not guess. You are bad at facts as it is, and now you want to bring guesswork into the matter.

          • eric_palmer

            No one can come across an internet blog or a discuss board with so much credibility as you show up with, having flown the F-22, F-16, F-15, B-2, even remotely piloted UAV’s over Iraq. Heck, we have a real gem on our hands in Don Bacon.

        • eric_palmer

          Hi Garry, seems you changed your Disqus handle.

          • billy

            LOL

          • Mike

            Nope, just the am old ground pounder who’s been there and done that…. Appears that Gary has taken some time off…

  • Don Bacon

    . . .the Marine Corps F-35B, approaches what is known as its Initial Operating Capability. . .

    Yes, the MC F-35B is queeny the lead dog on this enterprise, but we haven’t heard a peep recently about how the Marines intend to actually use the F-35B. They have said that the first squadron will be sent from Yuma to MAS Iwakuni, Japan in late summer 2017. Of VMFA 121′s 16 aircraft, six are slated for deployment on the USS Makin Island amphibious assault ship in the Pacific, with the remaining 10 at Iwakuni.

    Back last summer there was an interview with USMC Colonel (ret.) Art Tomassetti who might correctly be called the father of the F-35B. in part–

    Q. What impact will the F-35 have on US Marine Corps operations?
    A.The F-35 will have a significant impact on the Marine Air-Ground Task Force in bringing fifth generation capabilities and flexibility. It will be an important node in a networked battlespace by gathering and disseminating information, which can increase the overall situational awareness for Marines on the ground as well as for Marines and other friendly forces in the air.

    Nothing about strike fighter, nothing about shooting or destroying, or CAS, just “an important node in a networked battlespace.” How is the ACE commander on the Makin Island supposed to respond to that jibberish? Also how will he maintain that complex piece of equipment on an LHD far out at sea? The Marines will be doing this before the F-35 operational tests are concluded. Like most everything on the JSF program, that’s bass ackwards.

    • The real DON

      Just because you haven’t heard it obviously means that they have no idea of how they’ll use it. The great DON speaks out of the back end once again.

      • eric_palmer

        I guess the marines have all these F-35B’s and just park them on the ground and watch a bunch of movies all day munching away at them tax-payer funded Doritos. They eagerly await the “don in shining armor” to come and tell them what to do with the new jets

    • USNVO

      He answered the question asked, which boils down to “What new things does the F-35B bring to the USMC?”. Not what capabilities it has that already exist in the MAGTF. Reading comprehension, something to work on.

  • John Bogie

    No buddy has referred to the F-35′s wing loading! I learned to fly in 1943 and served in WW II just compare the F-35 Specs with the F-104 of the COLD WAR that became known as the WIDOW MAKER is the USAF and NATO buying another?

    • bigred8690

      The Starfighter had a high attrition rate in part because in those days there was no such thing as control augmentation systems. It is misleading to use outdated paradigms of aircraft design to criticize the F-35, one example being the idea that you have to have a bubble canopy for 360 deg visibility. In your time, as you know, fighter pilots had several minutes to prepare for the merge. By the 1980s, the moment you saw that speck, you had mere seconds. In future air combat, the Chinese pilot waiting for that moment won’t even know what hit him. History does not in fact keep repeating itself; there won’t always be classic dogfights just as there are no more classic bayonet charges or Normandy-like amphibious landings or set-piece naval battles like Trafalgar.

  • bigred8690

    For all the very real problems of the F-35, to be fair you have to understand that the proponents of the F-35 are fighting with their hands tied behind their backs. The most compelling capabilities of the F-35 are undoubtedly highly classified, while its publicly acknowledged shortfalls (for now) can be pounced upon by its detractors.
    If we read General Hostage between the lines, how could the F-35 be stealthier than the F-22? Stealth is always a function of aspect (angle), frequency, as well as condition of the LO materials. It’s a good bet, for example, that the F-35 is a huge improvement over the F-22 in the serviceability and durablility of its RAM. Back-to-back sorties, and it’s still stealthy. I’m being conservative here just to play devil’s advocate. Just that advantage by itself is worth it.
    In a future conflict, the Growler will be about as technologically helpful as dragging along an old WW1 era battlewagon in the 1940s-potentially useful but no longer decisive. If the key to winning the future battle is in the opening stages where stealth is most valuable, why would you want a highly visible Growler with its jamming serving as a huge beacon to be announcing to the enemy that you’re coming?
    In the hypothetical Pacific conflict, the Navy’s key contributions will be submarines and Aegis destroyers with BMD capability. The carriers will be held back so they don’t get sunk.

    • USNVO

      Stealth is also frequency dependent. Since the General was talking about VHF search radar, he may be merely referring to the fact that a smaller airplane has a lower RCS in the VHF band.

    • sabo

      f-18′s EW is meaner and more important then you probably realize. Expect to see this craft in service for a long time. that is unless they come up with some UAV that has its EW capabilities.

  • JimBobJoe

    Decent article. I know judgement should be reserved considering all the classified unknowns, and until the verdict is out.
    It’s also perfectly understandable the amount of distrust considering the rich history of low-balling/inflated promises followed by cost-overruns & delays these guys have. The F-35, not only, fits that profile, but fit’s the profile of following that pattern to the extreme, and causing much damage to other US military capabilities through financial deprivation, if that is the case.

    The F-35′s sustained turn rate is bottom of the barrel compared to potential adversaries, so, dogfights are out of the question. The stealth is reported only straight on. The F-35 does not have all aspect stealth.
    The air defense systems being produced by potential adversaries like the S-400, and the S-500 not far off, are designed to counter stealth. AESA radars are catching up with stealth quickly, and may be caught up by the time the F-35 reaches FOC. It may no longer be a stealth platform at that point. Timing is of the essence in the measures/counter-measures game.

    Growlers might not be needed when war starts, but these will be needed:
    http://youtu.be/0acJ3xyhaJo?t=14s

    • Marlon Serrano

      What part of Gen. Hostage’s claim that “the F-35A has AT LEAST the same thrust to weight ratio and maneuverability as the F-16″ makes it having a sustained turn rate that is “bottom of the barrel”??

      The notion that the F-35 is slow and sluggish is a common misconception among aircraft enthusiast who have not properly researched about the aircraft.

      The thing is, when it comes to maneuverability, the F-35 has a lot of it,

      its thrust to weight ratio and wing loading properties are better than an F-16 when loaded for combat.

      F-16C (block 50)
      Empty: 18,900 lbs
      Load: 8,000 lbs (6,000lbs of fuel + 6 missiles)
      Combat Weight: 26,900 lbs
      Wing Area: 300 feet
      Wing loading: 89.66 lbs / square feet
      Thrust: 28,600 lbs (low altitude)
      Thrust-to-weight ratio: 1.06

      F-35A (configuration 240-4, most recent update)
      Empty: 29,000 lbs
      Load: 10,000 lbs (8,000lbs of fuel + 6 missiles)
      Combat Weight: 39,000 lbs
      Wing Area: 460 feet
      Wing loading: 84.7 lbs / square feet
      Thrust: 43,000 lbs (low altitude)
      Thrust-to-weight ratio: 1.10

      Its flight control surface AOA limit is 50 degrees and has been tested to 73 degrees with ease, the MIG 29 can theoretically reach only 45 degrees without its limiter,
      but pilots of the fulcrum choose to engage the limiter because the Mig-29 easily goes out of control or depart when at high AOA,

      the F-35 on the other hand is notoriously difficult to depart and extremely easy to put back in controlled flight if ever it does depart. So “if”, or should I say “when” the F-35 finds its self needing maneuverability, it will have plenty to go around

      • JimBobJoe

        You know what I am talking about.

        The F-35 is not, nor was it designed to be, an air superiority fighter.

        The fact that America has only 178 F-22′s has made that aspect much more important for the F-35 now.

      • Hound38

        Interesting analysis, BUT I was always under the impression that the F-16 was a pig in a fully loaded condition. The line I always remember was that a fully loaded 757 was more maneuverable than a fully loaded F-16.

        So, wouldn’t that make the comparison somewhat specious? Wouldn’t a better comparison be to an F-15 or the Eurofighter or the Rafale or a JF-17, Flanker…

  • Scot

    Would there be any value to the program in adding an electronic attack version – FA-35G Lighting / Growler?
    Given that the plane was supposed to be a jack of all trades – why not add another version to the three that already exist?

    • Ron Ham

      I think the USMC and the USN are waiting on this decision. They are eagerly awaiting Mr Bakon and Mr Wonk’s views on the matter to formally launch efforts to create such variants.

    • CharleyA

      That idea was pushed far to the right when the JSF program was rebaselined. The USMC *might* install a version of Intrepid Tiger, a comms jammer, on their jets – it requires little integration with the host aircraft, and could be fielded relatively easily. EA via the NGJ is much more complex undertaking, which is why NGJ will be introduced on the EA-18 years before it appears on the F-35 – if ever.

  • jk641

    Gen. Hostage says that he’s going to need all 1,700 F-35′s. (for USAF)
    He says that he will need 8 F-35′s to do the same job that two F-22′s can accomplish.
    So even if the F-35 works as advertised and everything functions perfectly, it’s going to be much inferior to the F-22.

    He also says that the F-35 “can’t turn and run away”.
    (for obvious reasons. It’s too slow and unmaneuverable. If an enemy fighter gets on the F-35′s tail, the F-35 will be toast. So the F-35s must destroy all the enemy fighters from long range.)
    It’s imperative that the F-35′s shoot down all the enemy fighters from long-range; they simply cannot afford to get tangled up in dogfights with enemy fighters, as the F-35 is simply not a dogfighter.

    But how do you shoot down enemy stealth fighters from long range?
    In the hypothetical US vs. China scenario depicted in the article, how would US fighters shoot down the J-20′s from long range?

    It is not certain how stealthy the J-20 will be, but if it has a low RCS it will not show up on radar until it was fairly close.
    By the time the J-20 shows up on the F-35′s radar, it’s very possible that the F-35 will show up on the J-20′s IRST.

    (The F-35 has the most powerful engine of any fighter jet, and it gets very very hot, especially in afterburner.
    The F-35 doesn’t have the engine plume infrared signature reduction of the F-22.
    So, it will be visible on infrared sensors from a long distance.)

    If the enemy fighters shoot heat-seeking missiles at the F-35, how survivable will it be?

    But more importantly, how will the F-35′s avoid close-in engagements with enemy stealth fighters, for which it is gravely unsuited?

    .
    .

    Let’s face it. The F-35 is in no way invisible to radar.
    It’s visible plain-as-day to low frequency radars. China is also building an OTH (Over the Horizon) radar network that can detect stealth aircraft and has a range of thousands of kilometers.
    The F-35 is only stealthy in the X-band (and only from certain aspects), and can only jam radars in the X-band.
    So, there’s no way that the F-35 can avoid detection.
    And once it’s detected, the enemy will send stealth fighters up against it.
    But the F-35 won’t be able to destroy the enemy fighters from long range.
    And the F-35 will be drawn into a close-range engagement, for which it is unsuited. (poor dogfighting performance, huge infrared signature)
    How does the F-35 come out on top??

    It is clear that China, for instance, will be able to build large numbers of stealth fighters.
    But it appears to me that F-22 Raptors are the only US fighters that will be up to the task of dealing with them.
    The US only has 187 F-22′s.
    The way I see it, US (and its allies) will lose air superiority to a combined Russia/China alliance.

    If we continue with the F-35 program, then this is the only likely outcome.

    • Uniform223

      F-35 F-22 B-2 F-117 are not invisible to radar, just very very hard to find. People always talk up long wave radars, VHF radars and radars of different frequencies. The main problem with those other systems is that they are not accurate. A long wave low freq radar might tell you there is a stealth aircraft out there but it cant give you a good enough vector to the aircraft in question. All you will know is that its out there. Most if not all LO designs for aircraft were design to primarily defeat the radar that would most likely try to target them and is used in weapon systems for a accurate firing solution, X-bands radars. At longer ranges those high-freq radars will almost never detect a stealth aircraft until it gets closer to the source.

      I watched a conference where a USN pilot who was a former F-14 pilot that transferred over to the F-18 Super Hornet and now a test and training pilot of the F-35C say the F-35C has performances comparable to a slicked Super Hornet ( probably all internal carried payload ). He went on to add that the F-35C has 20000lbs of internal fuel, that is a Super Hornet with 2 drop tanks ( what size drop tanks I always wondered ). I’ve heard a USAF pilot state that in some regimes the F-35 can actually outrun a F-16 and that the Viper has to go to AB to catch up. The F-35B is also reported to have the same kinematics as the older F/A-18C/Ds. As I stated earlier the F-35 in terms of physical performance is no slouch. If you try and compare it to more high performance aircraft ( F-22, Typhoon, Eagle, Rafale, Flanker ) then of course it will always look like a bad contender.

      IRST ( even the best of them ) on a good day can give you almost a 90km range. If you’re lucky enough to catch a heat bloom for the exhaust, then you’ll get over 120km. That is great and all but at those ranges there is no IR missile that can engage. Also at those ranges traditional X-band radars will have a hard to locking and tracking a stealth aircraft. If one was so luck ( or unfortunate ) enough to spot an F-35 or F-22 through those means ( IRST or low-freq radars ) then use their ( higher frequencies ) radar to attempt a lock on, they lose the element of surprise. The F-35s and 22s avionics and advanced RWR will pick you up and lock you up. The scary thought is that those two aircraft will be able to effectively engage you but you cant do anything until you or they get close enough. It should also be noted the F-22 and F-35 have some minor design features that slightly minimize their IR signature ( special coatings and active cooling measures in certain areas )

      Then lets look at the J-20. There are so many elements one can pick out that would greatly compromise its “stealthy” features. For one and very noticeable is its forward canards, they present large angular moving surfaces that reflect radar waves. Also upon closer inspection the J-20 will actually have the worse RSC for a stealth aircraft ( comparing to F-22, F-35, PAKFA, and later J-31 ). In that regard the F-35 will be able to detect, track, and target a J-20 WAY before the J-20 can do anything of the sort against an F-35 or F-22.

      I will add though that Bill Gigliotti who himself is a Lockheed Martin test pilot for the F-35 ( graduated US Navy Fighter Weapons School AKA Top Gun, combat veteran of 1991 Gulf War, graduate of US Navy Test Pilot school, and a former F-14 and F-16 pilot ) stated that the US military should closely look at and invest in a new long range missile that would greatly complement and extend engagement ranges for the F-22 and F-35 natural stealth capabilities. We haven’t had a missile like the AIM-54 Phoenix since its decommission. The latest AIM-120D is believed to have an effective range a little over 100mi and that is no where near the European Meteor Missile. The inability to field a long range intercept missile for US fighter aircraft as he stated “is the Achilles heel of the US fighter fleet across the board”.

      • jk641

        About low-freq radars not being accurate enough to pinpoint the location of stealth aircraft:

        I once read an interview of an Australian pilot who was test flying the F-35 in Australia.
        He said that the F-35 was plainly visible to the JORN (OTH) radar network, and it would’ve been easy to use the radar track to get within visual range of the F-35.
        (China is building its own OTH radar network.)
        He also said that the F-35 was slower and less agile than the old Mirage III at most altitudes.

        It’s true that the F-35 isn’t the slowest fighter jet out there.
        But I believe its combination of slowness and lack of agility will be fatal in a dogfight.
        Not only is it slow, its sustained turn rate is a mere 4.6g’s.
        (The FA-18 is also slow, but at least it is very agile.
        The F-16 may handle sluggishly when its fully loaded with bombs, but in A2A configuration it is very fast and agile and leaves the F-35 in the dust.
        The F-35, sadly, can never be fast and agile. It’s too fat and heavy, doesn’t have enough engine thrust, and its wings are too small.)
        If I were in charge, I would scrap the F-35 and redesign it. I would omit the VTOL capability, and give it two engines and bigger wings. (better out of cockpit visibility too)

        Also, in the age of stealth, infrared sensors will become more and more important.
        In stealth vs stealth engagements, the smart thing to do is to turn your radar off. (or use it as little as possible)
        IRSTs are becoming more and more sophisticated, their ranges becoming ever greater, and long-range heat-seeking missiles are being developed.

        Also I don’t know how the F-35 became more stealthy than the F-22.
        The F-35 has only frontal aspect stealth from the horizontal plane, and even this frontal RCS has been getting worse over time.
        If you see pictures of the original X-35, it had a perfectly flat ventral surface.
        But if you look at the current production model, it has numerous bumps and warts on its belly and elsewhere (which can reflect back radar waves).
        OTOH, the F-22 has all-aspect stealth and a much flatter belly.

        I don’t know the exact RCS of the F-35, but I find it very unlikely that it will be more stealthy than the F-22.
        Will it be more stealthy than the J-20 or J-31?
        Will it be able to detect them before they detect it? I don’t know.

        In any case, in a hypothetical US vs China confrontation, the US stealth fighters will be detected by China’s OTH, low freq, and networked radars.
        The Chinese will vector their stealth fighters within visual (or infrared) range of the US fighters.
        At which point the F-35′s stealth will be moot and it will turn into a close range engagement..

        • Uniform223

          No RAAF pilot has flown the F-35 outside COUNUS. The first F-35s to do so will be the 3 F-35Bs flying to England for the RIAT 2014. Those few lines about the “Australian pilot” and his/her “remarks” I call false.

          “Not only is it slow, its sustained turn rate is a mere 4.6g’s.(The FA-18 is also slow, but at least it is very agile.
          The F-16 may handle sluggishly when its fully loaded with bombs, but in A2A configuration it is very fast and agile and leaves the F-35 in the dust.
          The F-35, sadly, can never be fast and agile. It’s too fat and heavy, doesn’t have enough engine thrust, and its wings are too small.)
          If I were in charge, I would scrap the F-35 and redesign it. I would omit the VTOL capability, and give it two engines and bigger wings. (better out of cockpit visibility too)”

          I have heard and read those remarks time and time again and frankly it is getting old. Viper, Hornet, and even Eagle pilots come off the F-35 surprised that the Lightning IIs physical performance is substantially better then reported The 4.6g is the aircrafts minimum turn radius. Here is a really great read that would better illuminate the dreaded 4.6g sustained turn rate.

          http://elementsofpower.blogspot.com/search?q=F-35+turn

          “Depending on amount of fuel carried by each aircraft, the F-35A is capable of sustained turn performance on a par with the F-16A. Assuming the F-16A is still the ‘best’ in a sustained turn that there’s ever been at 15K feet and M.8, then that means the F-35A is capable of holding its own” The F-22 and F-35 flying with standard weapon ( all internal ) and fuel loads against conventional aircraft will have performances on par or exceeding, mainly due to lack of drag caused by external stores.
          Example: In 2012 Red Flag Alaska the Typhoon made headlines reporting simulated kill markings against the F-22. Note though ( something that wasn’t widely reported ) before the WVR engagements were kicked off the Typhoons were flying slick with no external stores or pylons. At that point the Typhoon will naturally have better performances then the heavier F-22. The real question to the debate or conversation is IF the Typhoon was flying against an F-22 with a full load of fuel and a standard armament and payload, will the Typhoon perform just as well? Short answer, no.

          People often look at the underside of the F-35 and immediately think or believe that all those bumps and “warts” will compromise the F-35s stealth. When looking more closely at them those bumps and surfaces all align with each other at a 65 degree angle not to mention more modern and durable RAM coatings on specific surfaces. The consistent alignment of angles and RAM covered surfaces on the underside of the F-35 still gives it operational LO survivability against modern and ( possibly ) foreseeable fire control radars. The F-35 might not be as stealthy as the F-22 at all angles and aspects but it has more then enough LO ( physical ) features to get the job done.

          ( How many times do people have to state this ) Again using low-freq/long-wave radars against a stealth aircraft will only let you know that they’re out there. They cannot provide accurate information for proper intercept vectors or firing solutions which is critical. IRSTs are good but compared to the ranges radar systems give, are not good enough. Currently there is no tactic or technology ( known publicly. Though I would assume because the US has had so much experience with stealth designs and tactics; the US already has highly classified tactics and technologies to defeat or properly defend against LO platforms ) out there that is hammering the nail in the coffin to LO designed aircraft.
          The AIM-9X ( from talking to an F-22 pilot at the Nellis AFB airshow in 2012 ) has a maximum range of 20mi with a optimal engagement range between 1mi-12mi. Compared to the AIM-120 which has reported range of 100mi, there is no IR seeking missile that can engage a stealth aircraft at BVR ranges. I will agree that a WVR stealth capabilities become moot ( I do believe though that the F-35 will still be able to hold its own against most adversarial aircraft ). USN and USAF have been experimenting with the LOAL ( Lock On After Launch ) concept with the AIM-9X. This will allow the F-35 and F-22 to maintain its stealth without having to compromise it for exposing the Sidewinders seeker head in order for it to lock on and track an adversary aircraft. Details are fuzzy about the CUDA missile. It is reported and rumored to have a multi-purpose capability, hypersonic speeds, WVR and BVR engagement ranges, and is stated to use kinetic hit-to-kill technology.

          • jk641

            Over the Horizon radar bounces radar waves off the earth’s atmosphere, so frontal aspect stealth is ineffective against OTH radar.

            Also, these days they’re coming up with all sorts of ways to detect stealth aircraft, such as combining long and short freq radars, networked radars, IRSTs, etc.
            They will get better and better as signals processing technology (aided by computers and software) keeps improving.

            The important thing is, once the F-35 shows up on radar, it’s no longer invisible.
            The element of surprise is lost.

            (And once the F-35 appears on the enemy’s IRSTs, it will be in big trouble.
            Its huge engine heat signature will make it a big target for heat seeking missiles.)

            Also, please don’t try to make the F-35 look like an air superiority fighter, because it’s not.

            The F-35 was originally designed as a low-cost ground attack aircraft to complement the F-22 Raptor.
            The US was originally going to buy 750 Raptors, but for budget reasons they ended up buying only 187 of them.
            This is the only reason why the USAF wants to use the F-35 for air-to-air missions as well as air-to-ground missions. (but they’re dead wrong)

            Even Gen. Hostage has said that the F-35 is not an air superiority fighter and that without the F-22, the F-35 will be “irrelevant”.
            The F-35 is much slower, less agile, and has a lower altitude ceiling than the F-22. Also, it can carry only 4 missiles internally, as opposed to 8 for the Raptor.

            Also, I don’t know why F-35 supporters keep comparing the F-35 to the F-16A and insist that the F-35′s performance is “not that bad” in certain situations.
            This is really misleading.

            The F-16A is a small fighter with small wings, so of course its performance suffers when you weigh it down with fuel and ordnance.
            Besides, none of America’s enemies operates the F-16, so why compare the F-35 to the F-16?

            How about actually comparing the F-35 to the aircraft it will likely face in a future conflict?
            For instance, how does the F-35 stack up against the Su-35?

            The Su-35 (or T-50 PAKFA, or J-20) are all larger fighters than the F-16.
            They have bigger wings and a lot more engine thrust, so they’re not affected anywhere near as much as the F-16 when they’re weighed down with fuel and ordnance.
            How will the F-35 stack up against these potential adversaries?

            For instance, the Su-35 has an empty weight of 40,500lbs, but when its fully loaded with 25,400lbs of fuel, its weight is 65,900lbs.
            The Su-35 has a wing area of 667 sq ft, and max engine thrust of 63,800lbf.
            So with 100% fuel, the Su-35′s wing loading is 98.8 lb/sq ft, and its thrust/weight ratio is 0.97.

            The F-35A has an empty weight of 29,300lb. When fully loaded with 18,200lb of fuel, its weight is 47,500lbs.
            The F-35A has a wing area of 460 sq ft, and max engine thrust of 40,000lbf.
            So with 100% fuel, the F-35A’s wing loading is 103 lb/sq ft, and its thrust/weight ratio is 0.84..

            So how do they compare at 50% fuel?
            At 50% fuel, the Su-35 has a total weight of 53,200lb.
            So its wing loading is 80lb/sq ft, and its thrust/weight ratio is 1.2.

            At 50% fuel, the F-35A has a total weight of 38,400lb.
            So its wing loading is 83.5lb/sq ft, and its thrust/weight ratio is 1.04..

            Bottom line is, there’s no way that an F-35A can achieve parity with the Su-35.

            How about Russia’s new T-50?
            (WARNING: This may cause fainting.)

            The T-50 has an empty weight of 39,700lb. Fuel capacity is 22,700lb.
            Total weight is 62,400lb.
            Wing area is 848 sq ft, and max engine thrust is 79,200lbf.
            So, with 100% fuel, the T-50′s wing loading is 73.6lb/sq ft (!). Its thrust/weight ratio is 1.27 (!!).

            How about at 50% fuel?
            With 50% fuel, the T-50′s weight is 51000lb.
            So, the wing loading comes down to 60lb/sq ft, and its t/w ratio is 1.55.
            (Jesus Christ, this thing is an effing spaceship.)

            Basically, in a dogfight, the T-50 will eat the F-35 for breakfast (or a light snack).

            Still wanna buy 2,443 F-35′s and make it the mainstay of US air power for the next few decades?

      • Supernova1987

        That often quoted range for the 120D comes from the wiki article AFAIK. This figure is probably very exagerated. The 120D was supposed to have 50% more range than the C-5, not C-7. The C-5 has a range of about 75km, so that would put the D’s range at about 110-120km. This is already quite good considering the fact that the AIM-120A had a range of 55km or so, and the D keeps the same external dimensions.
        That max range could be significantly reduced if the enemy plane has the ability to detect the launch and does the right maneuvers to escape.

        The F-35 absolutely needs a longer range weapon.

  • someguywithoutaTSclearance

    “The F-35′s cross section is much smaller than the F-22′s….”

    Um, what?

    “The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.”

    I admit that a defense journalist and a guy in the Air Force who really should know what he’s talking about on the matter are presumably credible. But those statements go against literally everything I’ve read on F-22 vs. F-35 radar-observability. What I’ve read everywhere being what most of us have probably read everywhere: That the F-35′s RCS is about as good as the F-22′s in the frontal aspect and against tracking/targeting radars operating in traditional frequencies for those, but inferior from non-frontal aspects and against broadband threats.

    So either the F-35′s RCS has come out far better than expected and this is the first public item (I’ve seen, anyway) to report that, or the the author and/or his source are hugely mistaken. The balance of probabilities probably favors the latter, I’m thinking.

    • someguywithoutaTSclearance

      Reading other comments, the only explanation that seems sort of crebile for the comments is that the F-35′s RAM are must easier to maintain than the F-22′s therefore the F-35 has better “practical stealth”, in a sense. Which is not an assine statement, considering what we know about the F-22′s problems with maintainability of coatings and how the F-35 was designed (ie. to sidestep those problems).
      Except that’s not what I take the author and Gen. as saying. It seems clear to me what they’re saying is that the F-35 flat out has a lower RCS than the F-22 in general, on Day 01, Sortee 01 of the war. Which would be big news.

      • someguywithoutaTSclearance

        Ugh, need a mid-life upgrade on remembering to proofread.

  • Uniform223

    Okay first off lets get some simple facts straight. No partner country has completely pulled away from the JSF program. Not Canada, Australia, Turkey, who ever. Though because of the constant delays ( I blame program management not the aircraft so much ) the partner countries for the JSF has scaled back the numbers on how many F-35s they want to purchase. So when ever I read or hear bupkis news about the F-35 being dropped for the EF2000 or Rafale, show me a news article then I’ll believe you more. Speaking to that here is some articles that will piss off the F-35 hater mob.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/05/us-lockheed-martin-canada-f-idUSKBN0EG2P820140605?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=992637

    http://www.worldtribune.com/2014/05/27/israel-years-refusals-gets-concessions-obama-f-35-modifications/

    http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2014/05/116_157819.html

    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27122188

    It LOOKS LIKE Canada will still go ahead with the F-35 to replace its aging fleet of CF-18s. Australia will purchase 58 F-35s. Israel is now on the F-35 bandwagon. Korea picked the F-35 over the F-15SE and is really eyeing the F-35. So lets face it, as much as people hate the F-35; Lockheed Martin cornered the defense market with the F-35 and there is no real aircraft like the F-35 as close to completion or operational status.

    When it comes to how much/little we know of the F-35, think in terms of bread crumbs or puzzle pieces strewn about. Do not take one piece of “information” and take as pure fact. Part of the fun ( that I have with the F-35 ) is dissecting anything that I can find out there ( I recommend people do the same ), and try and paint a more complete picture ( I do not want to sound or act like I am superior to other but seriously this whole, “lets pick one side and just roll with it” is getting pretty old ). As an aircraft in terms of physical performance its no slouch. From places I’ve read and videos I’ve seen the F-35 ( in terms of physical performance ) is somewhere between that of a F-16 and F-18. The F-35 ( F-35A and C ) will have a faster dash to the transonic but will be slower to the supersonic. The USMC F-35B is a vast physical improvement over their AV-8Bs. F-35B have been known to hit mach1.6 and have the physical performance of an F/A-18C.

    http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2013/08/f-35b-sea-trials-aboard-the-uss-wasp/

    Can the F-35 perform physically, yes though not as well as the Eagles or Raptors. Its NOT a dedicate air superiority/dominance platform but it should be regarded with some respect. In terms of pure software, avionics, battle link systems, ect… I still don’t know what to make of it. Mind you the F-35 was designed over an philosophy of a networked battle space and sensor fusion. So long as all the bugs, glitches, and software issues are resolved; the F-35 will have sensor fusion on a level that no other aircraft out there has now. The networked battle space has been pretty much the vision for big US military since the mid 90s. When or if the F-35s ( all versions ) are out with and fully upgraded to block 3F software and beyond, a flight of F-35s mixed with other aircraft ( F-22s, F-16s, Super Bugs, F-15s, EF2000 ) should make people have a long pause of worry. Though that concept is if military tacticians and planners can truly make that playbook and refine those tactics. When Eagle and Viper drivers went to the F-22 they tried to fly the Raptor like their previous aircraft. When they started to fly the F-22 as the aircraft its supposed to be, the F-22 ended up flooring the competition ( in some if not most aspects ).

    So the other issue is what will the F-35 face. That is a debate that is always ends up in a stalemate ( in my mind ). Looking at whats out there the F-35 will most likely go up against later 3rd generation ( Mig-21s ) and early 4th generation type aircraft. The real concern ( that I have seen damn near everywhere ) is how will the F-35 do against “peer” nations ( Russia possibly China ). Lets step back and look at those two nations track records. Russia is really great about playing up their military hardware capabilities as this huge colossal undertaking. At first the West gets scared of it then when the real number come back we ( US ) will let out a sigh of relief and say, “oh we’ve been doing that for nearly a decade now”. Russian military is really great at really playing up their achievements and keeping problematic issues in a black box somewhere. For instance Russia claims the Su-35 to be the most capable aircraft in the world and can supercruise with the best of them ( F-22, EF2000, Rafale ) though so far have not come out and published any real hard numbers for its supercruise capability. Su-35 also has the latest Russian radar tech the Irbis-E which is a PESA ( Passive Electronic Scanned Array ) and NOT an AESA like the F-22 and F-35. In simple terms an AESA is all around better than an PESA radar. Recently EF2000 and Rafale have upgraded to AESA radars, something the the SU-35 and developing PAKFA have yet to do. Also the USAF upgraded F-15s have been retrofitted with AESA radars and also the F-16s.

    China does indeed have ( now ) a huge industrial base. The real question is how good is their stuff. From everywhere I have seen China is great at making bootleg copies of everything they see ( hell look at their domestically produced cars ). I always joke that China is the bootleg capital of the world. To quote Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear, “It seems then the expression Copyright Infringement doesn’t translate terribly well into Mandarin”. Even look at their designs of their vaunted J-20. That looks like if a F-22 and Su-27 had an ill legitimate baby. Then look at their J-31… someone please tell me that DOESN’T look like an F-35. Sukhoi got upset at China for copying and their Su-27s that they sold to them in the mid and late 90s to make their own domestic version the J-11. Russia is reportedly about to finalize a sell to China for a handful of Su-35s but is reluctant to give the Su-35 with its proper engine to China.

    Anyone with a protractor, compass, ruler, and graph paper can easily draw up rudimentary and feasible stealth aircraft ( now ). The next hurdle is how are you going to build it and with what materials. After that when you get it off the drawing board and off the assembly line, the next big question is how are you going to employ it. That is where the US and its closest allies will have a major leap ahead over any adversary that wants to defend against stealth aircraft or use stealth aircraft against the US and its allies. The US has had first hand knowledge of how to build and use a stealth aircraft ever since the SR-71. Then came along the F-117 and the later B-2 pretty much within a decade. Then came along the F-22. Now we have the F-35 coming along to play in this game. The US has had first hand knowledge with LO designs and concepts for more then 30yrs now. The honest truth and fact is that Russia and China still have to catch up. Though there are situations where the F-35 cannot be the end all do all silver bullet it was and is hyped up to be.

    Hardware and the constant dick measuring aside, tactics is what will really make the difference.

    The F-35 is already assisting the F-22 in other ways too.

    http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20110406/NEWS/104060302/Raptor-use-F-35-radar-absorbent-coatings

    • PolicyWack

      Every partner nation has virtually pulled off. Australia has done face saving exercises. One after the other. They have quietly bought super hornets, and are secretly negotiating used Eurofighters from unnamed European countries. Helping them in this deal is an american expat turned basement_general. Turkey is making its own fighter and may buy 1 JSF so that they can test it as an aggressor. The UK has sent to Australia for testing a version of the eurofigther that can take off and land like a helicopter (swear to god, just like a helo). This new version has internal weapon bays and stealth. It looks remarkably like the F-35B with the exception that it actually flies. The UK will unveil this remarkable hyper stealth 6th gen jet at Farnborough and RIAT this year. Keep your eye out for those events and the debut of the 6th gen euro_fighter cum helicopter. South Korea has picked the T-50 (not the PAKFA but the trainer) because it can actually pass OPEVAL while the f35 cannot. Japan is going for their own fighter and helping them is a fellow by the name of Bakon who is an ex US Assistant Secdef with an axe to grind. This leaves the US services. The air force is secretly buying a new version of the F-16 and the Marines are upgrading the Harrier, into a F-135 powered stealth fighter with internal weapon bays. It too looks remarkably like the UK’s Euro_fighter_copter thingy. The USN is going to buy the advanced super hornet because it in its growler form jammed the Mars Rover for a few minutes before NASA requested that the jamming be stopped.

      • John1963

        Jammed the Mars rover..LOL Was that with the old pods or the NGJ?

        • Ron Ham

          I think Boeing is being super quite on this. Perhaps the basement hunters would be able to elaborate more since they have info from their employees who are always on the look out for secret stuff to steal.

  • h_ELP

    The F-35 has three basic problems that would kill it before it is acquired in any serious numbers -

    1) Its size and wingspan. As Mr Don pointed out in an earlier news story, the jet is too big. It can neither fit on a carrier and an LHD would do well to fit around 2 if they are allowed to rub against each other. The photo of it flying next to the typhoon clearly shows that even the nimitz class cannot take more than 5 at the most. The Navy is yet to test whether the F-35C can actually stay on a carrier. This has never been published, that the F-35C can stand on a carrier without rolling over and falling into the water is not KNOWN and no report has been published to the same effect. So therefore the F-35 despite of landing on a carrier has to take off because if it does not it will simply slide off due to the slick RAM treatment on its wheels and we will have a 500 million dollar aircraft take a swim.

    2) The greatest problem is with the B version or as most notable folks call, the BETA version of the jet. It is supposed to take off from forward basing yet for a given situation it fails to protect the basic command and control infrastructure of my basement’s workstation from destruction because the PIG burns too hot to take off vertically and the size would mean that it would not be able to come down the stairs. So the F-35B cannot protect even the most basic C2C structures that of my PAD.

    3) The third biggest problem is that the jet has not been designed around an operational requirement. We are producing them in something that is called concurrency yet they are going to the services and are being parked. Most air force pilots eagerly wake up in the morning and see where mr bacon and mr policy wonk have posted so that they could take notes. Notes which would eventually be incorporated into the F-35 manual and syllabus. If these great individuals stop posting their literature the entire JSF program would come to a grinding halt. To outsource the entire strategy, tactics and doctrine to two individuals namely Mr Policy Wonk and Mr Bakon is quite risky, given that these individuals can choke on a slice of pizza or a donut while typing away during one of their 20 hour marathon coordinated intercontinental Internet trolling runs and be out of action for a few days or weeks/months etc. This would be a great setback to the program’s established goals for IOC.

    Regards

    Eric Pamler

    • Don Bacon

      Thanks for the humor — we can use it.

      “….choke on a slice of pizza or a donut while typing away during one of
      their 20 hour marathon coordinated intercontinental Internet trolling
      runs”

      I bet you spent less time than that on your content-less humor piece.
      It was humor, right?

      • RebeccaBacon

        I left for work while you were still sleeping. You should not stay up so late on the internet and get out of that darn basement once in a while. I have not seen you in 2 days. The grocery list is on the kitchen countertop, make sure to get those grocery’s before dinner.

        • Don Bacon

          Becky!
          Thanks for working.
          You’re good for something, I say.
          BTW, Domino’s delivers to basements, if the tip is there.

          • RebeccaBacon

            This has been happening for too long. Don, you cannot continue living in your parents’ house. Find yourself a new place.

          • Eric_palmer

            looks like you are being kicked out. You can always come and live with us in Australia. We have a good racket going on here with the dissemination and propaganda campaigns..The public is also less interest in the military, they buy whatever we tell them

  • Admiral_Wonk

    I have more than 25 years of experience flying F-4, F-15, F-16, and F-22′s ( rc models) and another 5 years of experience as an AG. The F-35 does not cut it, its also called Just So Failed. It will never fly even when it flies and will never trap on a carrier, even when it traps on a carrier. It will also never pass OPEVAL even when it passes OPEVAL and it will also never see combat even when it sees combat. This is all a creation of hollywood, and man never went to the moon. Its too big to fail just like the SUN which we all know will fail to give light to us millions of years from now.

    • admiral_Wonk

      AG stands for Armchair general

    • billy

      You see things in an holistic way. No wonder you is an admiral.

  • John Bogie

    bigred8690 if your control augmentation system is so great why in your training the F-35 is limited to 4.5 Gs it is suppose to do 9.0 Gs. Also the Starfighter had stall warnings on both wings with a stick shaker and a panel light. I had 2 C-47 Capitans that flew the F-104 one at 30,000 Ft. doing a normal turn at 600 Knots the light and stick shaker started and before he could get level he was inverted and in a spin luckily at that altitude he was able to recover from an inverted spin, but at 12,000 feet he would have been dead so he quit the Air force.

    • MajorLebron

      They just received block 3.1 that opened up the G limit

      • John Bogie

        Great is it up to 9 Gs and works OK, Have they solved the Spatial Disorientation problem. FAA reports that only 5% survive this type of accident.

      • Don Bacon

        Nobody just received block 3.1.

        • MajorLebron

          The ITT flew their first sortie with 3I (its not 3.1) and have been flying 2b for some time now. Both those software increments open up the G envelope.

          • Don Bacon

            Block 3I is Block 2B hosted on an upgraded computer processor, three years late, scheduled for acceptance 2016.

          • Truth-Hurts

            But you said it has not flown. What exactly is your position? Or is that you must check back with shanghai?

          • Jackie Treehorn

            Sir less than a day ago you said that

            “Nobody just received block 3.1″

            Did you refer to a person receiving the software, in which case it is accurate. If you referred to the aircraft receiving the software you are incorrect.

            9 minutes ago you said

            “Block 3I is Block 2B hosted on an upgraded computer processor, three years late, scheduled for acceptance 2016.”

            So is it technically incorrect to say that the integrated test force flew the Block 3i software? Because the entire world media has reported it sir. From Australia where you have a correspondent to South Korea where you are in search of one after having lost Mr SLOWMAN whom you so admired on aviation week. Even the Chinese blogs reported it sir, which must have your attention.

            Perhaps sir its time you take a nap, it must be late in Shanghai. Let others hold the fort for a while and start fresh Monday morning. You know you have a lot of work to do given some of the announcements due in the coming weeks and months. Don’t push yourselves, money is not everything. Health before Wealth should be your Motto.

          • Wang Guanzhong

            You need to stop posting and RTB to shanghai and see me first thing in the morning. You cannot have rebuttals that a 2 second search on google can easily debunk. Our job is to target the uninformed and folks that do not have the time to spend on research. But anything that can be cross checked and debunked in 2 seconds actually hurts our position. You are in clear violation of the SOP laid down in your contract with us. Let Eric Palmer hold the fort until you are reinstated. We dispatching Garry Church as reinforcement, you are to seize all activity on disqus with immediate effect and report to my office at 0700 hours.

          • h_ELP

            your fat a$$ better not be late, DON. Way to go, thx for screwing it up for all of us.

        • Truth-Hurts

          You are correct sire. A person is in no need of a software update. We have not been created by god in such a way. Our software updates are through the natural process of maturity and the wisdom that comes with it. Of course for some the curve starts to go down quite fast. Those would be the folks much like yourself that begin to “loose it” past a certain age. Isolation, too much of the internet, blue screen and junk food is a contributing factor. So that is a sort of a deviation from the accepted norm of nature, but statistically significant given what the internet has lead too.

          Perhaps we can discuss this at a later date, but the fighter aircraft more commonly known as the F-35, Joint strike fighter or Just so frightening to you folks that have created an industry out of bashing it has flown an ITT sortie with block 3i software. Perhaps sir, you were too busy typing away your nonsense for the last few days to notice it.

          • solomon_palmer_wank

            Based on reports around disqus mr bacon, mr palmer, mr wonk were locked in a 14 hour marathon boardroom discussion to formulate strategy and tactics for when Canada decides to stick to the F-35. If rumors are to be believed, they were joined by Mr Goon and Mr Church and Admiral Solomon through a conference call because they were busy in shanghai sucking up to their masters. A well thought out, coordinated internet troll attack would be launched which would be followed by a campaign of denial that would run in parallel. Entire blog entries would be omitted that talk of such a situation developing and which ever website reports the matter would be attacked using PTT (precision troll targeting) and other means. Mr Church has been given 1 week leave with pay in order to recover from his previous assignment of following spaceX discussion and to talk down on Mr Musk and Co. He would be fully recovered in time for the Canadian announcement.

            All of the above mentioned “information warriors” would be called back to shanghai in the event if canada is to buy such a fighter in order to formulate a new strategy going forward in the event that canada becomes the 11th nation under the sun to go for the F-35 fighter.

          • Solomon_Palmer_Wan

            UPDATE: News has emerged from reliable sources that during the marathon meeting a consensus has emerged that in case Canada does what Reuters and others are claiming it will, the best line of attack would be to claim that this sort of commitment to the F-35 is just “wishful thinking” and that nothing will ever materialize. This line of argument is likely to persist even as Canada places order of the jet down the road and even as the first parts of their jet begin rolling off the early long lead production line. The argument may change once pictorial evidence begins to leak of a Canadian F-35 under construction. Reliable sources have also told Solomon_Palmer_Wank that their would be a denial campaign claiming that a lot of the countries committed to the f-35 have just done so out of “wishful thinking” and those countries will never end up buying any jets. In a high level one on one meeting between Mr Bakon and an intelligence operative known has Mr WOO, in a undisclosed location somewhere in the suburbs of Shanghai, it has emerged that Mr Palmer would take the lead in attacking the various websites in an event that the rumors regarding the Canadian purchase go throw. Mr Palmer and Admiral Solomon have already begun drafting blog entries (in anticipation) that reflect the new coordinated strategy.

        • Jackie Treehorn

          Isn’t the block 3.1 a software for the F/A-22 raptor?

      • Horn

        Where’d you hear this? Haven’t seen this yet.

  • John Bogie

    Mr. bigred8690 Your must work for LM. If your control augmentation systems is so great why in your training the F-35 is limited to 4.5Gs and it is suppose to do 9.00 Gs. The 104 had stall warnings on both wings with a stick shaker and panel light. I had 2 C-47 Captains that flew the F-104. One was at 30,000 Ft. doing a normal turn at 600 Knots, when the light and stick shaker started and before he could get level he was inverted and in a spin luckily at that altitude he was able to recover from an inverted spin, but he said if I was at 12,000 Ft. I would have been dead so I quit the Air Force. Why did Air France 447 crash and the Bombardier Dash 8 in Buffalo NY crash with all of the modern safety devices, Spatial Disorientation of which 5 crew members suffered the 3rd item in the F-104′s Accident Reports and I read reports that the F-35 Helmet gives problems like this. What happens in thunder Cloud and a Snow Storm?

    • wall street

      Yes i think the VP of marketing for Lockheed is Mr. Big red. I see it in their SEC filings.

    • CharleyA

      AF 447 crashed because the pilots did not recognize that the wing was stalled, and did not unload the airfoil or reduce the angle of attack to recover from an easily recoverable situation.

  • LowObservables

    I have been trying to call General Mike Hostage and have left 21 Voicemail messages. He is refusing to answer my calls on the matter. I have information straight from Sweden that will nullify anything he has to say about the matter. I spent 2 days with cutting edge radar and 6th generation fighter designers that will rubbish all he has to say. I had a blast and To Tell You The Truth, I Don’t Remember Most of It.

    • 2IDSGT

      Made my whole day….

      • Don Bacon

        That bad a day, huh?

        • 2IDSGT

          So what’s your opinion on SpaceX, F-35, V-22 and LCS? They all seem like totally awesome programs.

          Seriously, I’d like to know what you think about all those things… four paragraphs on each at least.

  • snafuu

    What is happening with the program is nothing short of a national scandal. In fact it should be put up in the UN as a case for a scandal. I think I’ll recommend it to the UN. Entire blogs should be dedicated to trashing it and its capability. I spend 10 hours a day doing it but have nothing to gain out of such an exercise. I do this purely from a position of a patriot, which I am, I support a 50 year acquisition program for the Super Hornet. If certain “discus” reports are to be believed the growler can indeed jam the Mars Rover millions of miles away, then we can potentially jam china’s air force form our fighters without having them leave the US coast. This is capability worthy of an investment.

    • Avon Barksdale

      WTF? I think it may have jammed the mars rover messages that are sent from Earth. I am pretty sure it cannot jam signals from another planet.

  • DAVIDsAXE

    This is a very complicated fighter, Colin. You
    know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous. And, uh, a lotta
    strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old David’s head.
    Fortunately, I’m adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug regimen to keep my mind,
    you know, uh, limber

  • I am loving it

    Its amazing what technology has done. The pilots on the ground, the maintainers in the field, and the strategists and planners working for DARPA have DISQUSS to fall back upon for guidance on how to plan and execute national security.

  • VladimirPutin

    This is all smoke and mirrors. Have you seen the movie wag the dog?

  • SMSgt Mac

    Colin is probably the only person enjoying this thread more than I am. Dee-licious!

  • sabo

    From the ART of WAR this is called “fighting the last war.” ~ all these
    assumptions are based on what happens today and take in no account for
    advances in enemy technology or tactics. Its already been said that
    stealth is dead with the new russian radar systems, if this is true,
    then the f-22 and f-35 could be in for a world of problems. personally I
    think the f-35 was a bad design choice, because its a Fighter and
    bomber with no real clear role. its operation depends on air
    superiority. this may not be the case, just as we saw in gen 4
    fighters, when the anti-air systems surpassed their technologies. Seems
    like we are putting all our eggs in 1 basket, and I dont think that is
    ever a good plan.

    • 2IDSGT

      If all our base are belong to you, why is russia and china are building stealth fighters too?

      • h_ELP

        Because their stealth can pass OPEVAL, while the F-35 will never do so. Their stealth can trap on a carrier, the F-35C will trap on a carrier in October, but it will not trap on a carrier EVER. Their stealth has plasma technology, F-35′s stealth has No plasma technology. Their stealth has L band Radar protection, F-35 stealth has no such protection. Their stealth can directly fly over a VHF radar, even at low altitude, scrape the top of the VHF radar antenna and still not be detected. F-35′s meanwhile can be detected by VHF antenna while still on the ground.

        Get it?

  • jk641

    It’s scary that even the commander of USAF’s fighter force is saying that the F-35 has the maneuverability and thrust-to-weight ratio of 4th generation fighters.

    Is he saying this because an F-16A weighed down with fuel and ordnance performs similarly to an F-35?

    It is obvious that an F-16A’s performance will be diminished when it’s fully loaded.
    It’s a small plane with small wings and low engine thrust.

    But which of our potential enemies is operating the F-16A?

    In potential future conflicts, the F-35 will face opponents which are much superior to the F-16A, such as the Su-35, T-50, and J-20.
    They are all bigger planes with bigger wings and much greater engine thrust. (they all have double engines)

    If the F-35 gets into a dogfight with these opponents, it will be vastly outmatched.

    We will only have 187 F-22′s to deal with enemy stealth fighters.
    We should start panicking now.

    • Supernova1987

      The F-35A will have the ability to supercruise at mach 1.2, which is not that bad.
      The F-35 will try as much as possible to avoid getting close.
      It should be able to attack at 240degrees or so with its DAS combined with the EOTS in near BVR. And even at 360 degrees with only the DAS and/or off-board targetting informations.
      It’s a matter of time before the capability to carry 6 internal missiles is funded. They have to finish block 3F first.
      It will also be able of carrying the meteor. The japanese for instance are buying the meteor.
      Maybe a mix of 2 meteors on the a/a stations and 4 AMRAAMs on the a/g internal stations will be possible.
      The F-35 should always try to cover each other so they can shoot under any angle.

      • jk641

        It seems highly risky to rely so heavily on the EODAS.
        And on long-range A2A missiles which have not been proven against stealth aircraft.

        Also, the fact that F-35′s will have to be fielded in numbers so they can protect each other is not too reassuring.
        (It’s somewhat reminiscent of the early WWII strategy of sending large formations of B-17 bombers on bombing runs into Germany unescorted, thinking that their tight formations and myriad guns would be able to fend off enemy fighters. Just saying, it didn’t work too well..)

        I agree that F-35s will have to avoid getting close to enemy fighters at all costs.
        They will have to eliminate all the enemy fighters at long range.
        But would that really be possible in real life? Would it really be this clean and tidy?

        What if the rules of engagement didn’t allow you to shoot at enemy fighters at BVR range?
        What if the situation was more ambiguous, fluid, and not clear cut?

        Is real life as simple as air combat simulation games, for instance, where you go in and destroy all the enemy fighters as quickly as possible, no questions asked?

        How useful would a fighter jet really be, if it excelled at BVR combat but was useless for WVR combat?
        Wouldn’t that impose a serious limitation on the plane’s versatility?

        Basically, you can only send in the F-35 if it’s an all-out war (or you’re enforcing a no-fly zone) and you will be destroying all enemy aircraft upon detection, no questions asked.

        Is war really always that simple?

        • Supernova1987

          The B-17s were not stealthy at all and didn’t have the first shot with a relatively good pk most of the time ( by relatively good pk I mean 40% or something like that).
          The DAS can be used to reduce the chances of the pilot being taken by suprise. The pilot immediately knows where the target is with his helmet.
          The DAS can also be used to triangulate between 2 aircraft to have accurate targetting informations.
          In case there is only one F-35 and it’s impossible to triangulate, the pilot can use the field of view of the EOTS to get the targetting informations. He just has to do a quick maneuver to put the target in the FOV of the EOTS.
          It is all a matter of tactics, although I agree using only the DAS may not give a good pk. That is hard to tell.
          The F-35′s AMRAAMs may also not have enough maneuvrability against targets that are close.
          The F-35 will have better missiles than the AMRAAM sooner or later. The NGM will have a tri-mode seeker and will be much more maneuvrable. The problem is not the F-35 itself, it’s the missile. With 6 NGMs the F-35 will be very well armed.
          Also it may be quite hard for an opponent to get close to an F-35 because it would have a hard time finding it. The F-35′s radar will be used for jamming too when getting close. And the F-35 pilot would refrain from using its afterburner when approaching head on.

          • jk641

            Well, these next generation missiles better be very effective against enemy stealth fighters.
            Because if they’re not, the F-35 will be doomed.

          • Supernova1987

            What about the enemy’s missiles. Do you think they are foolproof against a very stealthy plane like the F-35?
            And the F-35 will have a sort of towed decoy ( ALE-70 ) and DIRCM later. Plus its radar will probably be able to attack electronically enemy missiles in the frontal sector. And the DAS will be used as a missile launch warning system to do evasive maneuvers.
            And even if the F-35′s missiles have an average pk, say 40%, the F-35 should have the first shot most of the time. If the enemy plane does not try an evasive maneuvre the pk of the missile will go up. If it does an evasive maneuver, it will lose energy and will be unable to counter attack and guide its own missiles. Its SA will go down against the stealthy F-35 which will reattack as soon as the missile has missed. The one that attacks first has a significant advantage.
            Also you don’t need to take out all the enemy planes to win. A loss of 25% of planes per sortie is huge and an F-35 force could easily inflict that to an enemy.
            The F-35 is not a pure fighter and some will probably be lost, but it is not as disadvantaged as some would want to proclaim. Allied forces would also have a huge numerical advantage.
            Detractors don’t want to look at the advantages of the plane. It will be an excellent strike plane. It can wipe out an enemy air force and IADS quickly on the ground. With its advanced sensors, stealth and sensor fusion it will be an order of magnitude more effective against ground tactical targets.

          • jk641

            Do you know if the AMRAAM is being tested against stealthy (low RCS) targets?

            Also, if the F-35 turned its radar on to attack enemy stealth fighters, wouldn’t it be giving away its location?

            Also, I find it unsettling that they are trying to make up for the F-35′s poor performance by sending it up in numbers, and fully expect that some will be shot down.
            (It’s not like the F-35 is a WWII-era fighter. Even losing a single F-35 will be a huge loss, no?)

            Also, I’m not sure how effective the F-35 will be against modern IADS’s. If the F-35 is detected by long-wavelength and networked radars and whatnot, the enemy will be alerted and the F-35 will lose the element of surprise.

            As I’ve said before, the F-35 will be vulnerable to heat seeking missiles.
            And the worrying thing is that IR missiles are becoming ever more sophisticated and harder to spoof.

            (And as for DIRCM, yes it would be great if the F-35 could be equipped with it, but it hasn’t yet been tested on fighter jets..)

          • Supernova1987

            I don’t know if the AMRAAM has been tester against VLO target. If I remember correctly the C-6 was optimized against cruise missiles, not sure.
            The APG-81 is supposed to have advanced LPI modes. NG has a lot of experience with LPI AESA radar from the APG-77 program.
            I also figure some F-35s would be shot down. But the most important thing is to survive against SAMs. Even if the F-35 has a 1:1 ratio against a PAK-FA or J-20 ( probably more with better missiles ) in the air, most of the enemy planes will be destroyed on the ground. The F-35 at FRP will not be that expensive, no more expensive than a typhoon. When a plane is destroyed, you lose the unit replacement cost, not the full acquisition cost. At FRP it would cost you about 90 millions to replace an F-35A.
            Any air strike plan will try to take care of these low frequency radars first. I guess they would try to kill them with cruise missiles.
            The F-35 has a reduced IR signature. IR missiles have some limitations but indeed they can be a significant threat. An F-22 would have the same problem however.
            A lot of countries will use the F-35 so there will be a strong incentive to develop its capabilities. The development of the F-35 is rather exasperating, but over time it will become a very good strike figther.

  • Supernova1987

    I am sure the USAF would rather invest in the Next Generation Missile ( dual role a/a and A/G ) than in more growlers. The F-35 absolutely needs something better than the AMRAAM and if possible the ability to carry 6 of them internally, and has no anti-radar missile at all.
    An F-35 armed with 4 NGMs ( incuding 2 on a dual launcher in the internal bay ) and 4 SDB2 would have the potential to be highly effective in the SEAD role.
    More growlers is not that usefull, all the more that the USN already has quite a large number of them.
    Apart from this the F-35 can escape at Mach 1.6, which is quite good. Although keeping like 4 F-35s flying CAP to help a strike package escape would probably be a good idea. These F-35s in a/a configuration would also give the strike package 360 degrees situationnal awareness while they are escaping, enabling them to engage enemy fighters in their rear sector with their remaining NGMs. If the enemy fighters are attacked they would have to make an evasive maneuver, so they would lose speed, enabling the F-35 package to escape.

  • strategicservice

    “Perhaps air forces around the world are going to have to come up
    with a new honor other than ace to define those who fly the F-35. What
    should a pilot be awarded for outsmarting the best air defense systems
    in the world or injecting something like Stuxnet into the enemy’s
    command and control system? So much of what this aircraft will do has nothing to do with shooting down another pilot that we may need a new term.”

    Considering all the plane’s technical problems, how about “lucky bastard”?

    How much does Lockheed pay for statements like this, I wonder?

  • Jonathan Amole

    I’m building F-35′s in my basement. I figure to sell them for about $1.95 a piece. Of course the B model will run a bit more. Lockheed and Pratt are not happy, but what can I do? Business is business and I’ve got a family to feed. You will see ‘em on Amazon pretty soon. Well as soon as I work out a few bugs anyway…

  • osynlig fog

    I struggle to see how the incredibly high price for the F-35 could be justified when there are options like the Rafale for example. I struggle to see the relevance of radar stealth in a networked environment.

    I would also like to compliment ELP and Don Bacon for managing to focus on the subject despite all the vitriol. I may not agree with what you write but its disgusting to see how the majority of anonymous commenters below are responding with crass personal attacks instead of discussing the subject. The people who think the F-35 is the best thing since sliced bread, support your view with proper arguments if you’re going to bother commenting.

    If you are engaged in a discussion, you discuss the matter at hand and do not make personal attacks or try to lessen your opponent (or use other power tactics). You respect your opponent no matter how different his/her view is from your own. When you resort to personal attacks it is because you are not in command of your own emotional reactions.

    Discuss the subject at hand, the F-35, and not ELP or Don Bacon. You are ruining the whole thread and I for one would like to see some proper discussion. If you think ELP is wrong it is your responsibility to make a good case for why he is wrong, not attack his person. Thanks.

    • http://www.breakingdefense.com/ Colin Clark

      Kudos for your attempt to bring the focus back on the facts, as best we all know them, and not on the people. Thank you!

    • El_Sid

      Reported costs of the Indian Rafale deal vary, but it’s of the order of 126 planes for $14bn, so $110m; FY11 flyaway costs for the French ones were $90-100m. It’s hard to see what advantage a Rafale would give you over an F/A-18E/F, let alone the F-35 – if the US were looking for a non-F35, then surely they would prefer SuperBug over Rafale?

      • Guest

        A Rafale is superior to a Super Hornet in every measurable way. It’s smaller, stronger, faster, far better manoeuvrability, less visible on all spectrums and the Spectra EWS suite has impressive capabilities.
        I believe the cost of the Super Hornet and Rafale where quite similar in the Brazilian competition.

        • El_Sid

          Who cares about Brazil – SH would be much cheaper for the US. No weapons integration costs (and SH weapons are superior, consider the system not the airframe), existing logistics and training platform, and an existing factory in the US, which they want to support for industrial reasons.

  • Jon

    Can the Growlers capabilities be incorporated into the F-35? Can a two seat version be produced?

  • Ron

    99.999% fantasy mixed with propaganda. I guess its good to brainstorm, but would you want to do it in front of the potential enemies?

    500 F35s this general is either pulling our leg or still dreaming and hasn’t woke up yet.

    Plasma stealth tech. Really, the stuff glows in the dark, might be good against cops but not the battlefield.

    Every war is different and requires different tools, knowing those tools ahead of time is very difficult plus enemy reacts. So in reality we need to flexible and able to react fast. in WWII we could field a new radar in 6 months. F35 does nothing against mind control and 16 year old kids willing to blow themselves up for their mom.

    So we keep working build a few prototypes and keep our minds open, which is what I hope we are doing.

    I enjoyed following this, gives me a good laugh to see passion and pseudo science mixed into a such a humorous cocktail about such a serious subject.

    • Bill Gamelson

      I’m happy to see you have worked so closely with this bird.

  • Daniel Dougherty

    It says “The F-35′s cross section is much smaller than the F-22′s” I have heard the exact opposite other places.

    • http://www.breakingdefense.com/ Colin Clark

      Few people know more in detail about both aircrafts’ classified characteristics than Gen. Hostage. I’d believe him. There is the possibility he is deliberately misleading, but he’s on the record.